Biff the unclean

But this is merely a statement about what is fashionable and not what is moral. It is the faith-fashion of the moment for American Christians to feel that way. Once it was faith-fashionable for Moslems to feel the same way.
But fashions change


This is my point entirely, and the reason that your faith does not deserve respect. You make no judgement that your faith is more reasonable than the faith which destroyed the WTC. You claim to have the Christian faith but not the faith of Christianity. You want to distance yourself from those of your same faith who committed atrocities. While, at the same time, admitting that you faith is based on no more reason than the faith of terrorists is. This is an admission that you show people respect for no better 'reason' than that you wear the style of clothes you prefer.
It's only fashion. To deserve respect you must employ reason. The most you can hope for with a faith-based philosophy is toleration.

Faith

I'm not the one contending that faith and reason are incompatible.

For instance, I see it as very reasonable to place value on human life and the feelings of others. Therefore I will not act violently towards my fellow man or persecute him for his beliefs if they differ from my own. Call it The Golden Rule, call it "Loving thy neighbor", it's both common decency and intimately connected to my faith.

If the decision is reason-based, then doesn't that demonstrate that faith and reason can co-exist?

Biff the unclean

You don't have to; the very nature of the concepts maks them incompatible

Your faith also teaches you that the entire human race is fallen and deserves by it's human mnature to be damned to Hell. 'If a man says that he does not sin HE LIES.' 'The ONLY way to the Father is through ME.'
Treating your neighbor as you would be treated is the bases of morality-empathy. With a faith that teaches that you yourself are a sinner who deserves damnation, empathy is rendered meaningless.

If a decision is reason-based then it shows faith to be superfluous. If a decision is faith-based then it is shown to be without reason.

Ellis14

Yes they can. Although faith requires the abandonment of reason. You might reason that apples are better than oranges to you, but have faith that God exists. The two notions are separate, and there is no reason why one person cannot use faith and reason in a variety of ways. Where faith and reason are mutually exclusive is where they conflict over the same issue or explanation.

Biff the unclean

Good point. Look back at the "golden rule". When it is considered with reason it is based on empathy for others and becomes the bases of morality.
When viewed with faith it becomes just another order from divine authority, no more or less moral than a divine order to fly into the WTC.

Ellis14

Exactly. Couldn't have illuminated it better myself. (Well I probably could, but that will do! )

Mageth

As an example:

Hbr 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],

Abraham was willing to kill his own son in the name of faith. How does that jibe with the "Golden Rule"?

Yahzi

But you don't respect others. You are upset about that plane & building thing, and would like to pass laws to prevent it from happening again.

You want to restrict their religious observances based solely on rational and reasonable grounds. Yet when we suggest restricting your religious observances based on rational and reasonable grounds, you object.

You only want your sacred cow to be protected. This is special pleading, and completely unjustifiable either logically or morally.

Either all religions are restricted by reason, or none are. Which will you have it be?

Faith

I made no judgment about the faith of others in that prior post, I only wrote about my own. My faith doesn't entail killing those who believe differently. I find the WTC murders, and all other atrocities committed in the name of God, morally abhorrent.

That opinion isn't based on fashion or faith.



Are you addressing me personally, or referencing Christians as a whole? If it's the former, your inference skills are rusty. I said nothing about passing laws to regulate or restrict any religion. But freedom of religion shouldn't include the right to kill those who who believe differently.



I asked for no special consideration.

I believe it is reasonable to place value on human life and feelings. I believe it is immoral to harm others. I imagine you feel the same. My beliefs are connected to my faith. To what do you connect your beliefs?

Mageth

Faith:

Your above post brings up a question, a serious question about your faith.

If the God your faith is directed towards asked, or told, you to do something you personally find morally abhorent, what would you do?

Consider the examples I gave from Hebrews. If God asked you to sacrifice your own son, would you? Abraham would, because he had faith. Or if the "Law" that your faith told you was given from the mouth of God (e.g. the Levitical Law) told you to have your rebellious son killed, would you? Or if your faith told you to participate in the extermination of whole populations simply so that you and yours could take their land and possessions, as Joshua and the Israelites reportedly did, would you? Or would you leave your family for your faith, as Jesus implied we should be willing to do?

All those things were done by faith, Biblical faith, faith in the God of Abraham.

You indicate that your beliefs are connected to your faith. By putting yoiur moral restrictions on what you would or would not do for your faith, you are directing or defining your faith, limiting it really, by your moral convictions. Faith, as portrayed in the Bible, does not give believers that option. Biblical faith overrules any moral convictions a believer may have. You're putting moral convictions above faith; the Bible clearly does not justify a believer doing so. Instead, it clearly indicates the opposite.

Note that I applaud you for putting morality above faith; everyone should. Clearly, the 9/11 terrorists didn't (and their "faith" was biblically based, channeled through the Qu'ran). However, you should recognize this dark and dangerous side of Biblical faith - Biblical faith requires the supression of personal moral convictions.