Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gstafleu · 01-11-2007, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Are there possibly other stories in the gospels? Is it not an assumption to take them at face value? What if they are stories to teach - what - with a hero figure as a plot device?

My assumption is that many biblical elements--stories, parables etc.--have elements in them that can be found in other mythologies. I mean that in a fairly specific way. For example just saying that Jesus was a hero and Hercules was a hero doesn't get you very far, you have to have a similarity in the elements that constitute the central symbolism of the myths. I think that with my food plants posting I gave a reasonable example of that. I've started to read more about comparative mythology to see what else there is to find.

Another possible example is the crown-of-thorns scene in the passion. That is very reminiscent of the widespread immolated kings--or king-for-a-day--mythologies. In this case I suspect it may be more fruitful to look for its origin in these mythologies than in the OT. Neil Godfrey has a table of passion comparisons. Scroll down to the purple robe and crown of thorns bit (Gpeter 3:6). Below that he presents some suggestions of where in the OT it came from. The problem is that it is hard to see a correspondence in the meaning of the scenes, in fact, it may be an example of gamera's "pattern recognition." So I suspect we can do much better from the immolated kings mythologies. Just an example, it needs more looking into (and I don't mean to put Neil on any spot here, I don't know if he meant his OT derivation to be in any way exhaustive or conclusive).

Quote:

Why these parables, these incidents? Do they point somewhere else entirely?

I'm pretty sure there may be meaningful links with other mythologies than just the OT/NT. So in that sense many may "point" to something else. That does not mean their meaning all of a sudden changes completely from christian/judean to pagan, though: the meanings have no doubt often been judaized/christianized. In the case of the Eucharist e.g. the meaning is no doubt to remember Christ, not to explain the origin of a plant. But the shape and contents of the ritual did come from the plant myths, just the meaning has changed. In case of the purple robe and crown of thorns, it is more difficult to see a change in meaning. After all the "king of the Jews" was being killed. Maybe in this case both the shape and the meaning of the myths have been retained.

As a general remark, I would think that this could be a rather rich field for BC&Hers. I wonder why it has been ignored so far? Or has it?

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu · 01-11-2007, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Limbo

There is only one consistent way to read myth and symbol - psychologically. That means digging past the local symbol or ritual to it's universal meaning and comparing those meanings across the board. There is only one way to do that - comparative mythology.

I would generally agree to that, but with a caveat as to the universal meaning. See my last reply to Clivedurdle, the part near the end where I compare the Eucharist with the crown of thorns scene. The surface meaning of the myth has no doubt changed in the Eucharist: it is meant in remembrance of Christ rather than being an origin myth for a food plant. Now of course we can go below that and compare Christ and the meaning attached to him with other gods and the meaning attached to them, and then see if we see correspondence in the symbolism of the various remembrance rituals. That is valid, but we should be careful not to depict Christianity (or any other mythology) as "just another version of" a general theme: meaning has been added to Christianity that differentiates it from the other mythologies, and that should not be ignored just because there are also similarities (not that I'm saying you were suggesting to do that). Having said that, it is clear that often the differences are overemphasized to the extent of uniqueness, and that is also wrong.

Thanks for the link to the mp3's BTW, I'm going to play them when I get home.

Gerard Stafleu

Gamera · 01-11-2007, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

That seems a rather weird comment. Are you saying that human beings are good at pattern recognition (agree) and that hence we should distrust the patterns recognized? That is a bit like installing a burglar alarm and then saying since it was designed to detect intrusions we should obviously ignore any intrusions it detects.

Now you may say that the parallel here is with false alarms. Fine, but usually one then checks to make sure the alarm is in fact false. One doesn't just dismiss it out of hand. So why do you think this similarity between mythological themes is a false alarm?

Now as for your Ikea catalog, first of all let me point out that I am comparing themes from similar stories: mythologies (unless you want to assign Christianity some privileged position as being the only non-mythological mythology). Second, what I am comparing are not random structural elements from wildly different genres (a mythology and an Ikea catalog) in the hope I find some that match. Rather I am comparing the essential elements of stories within one genre: mythology. Dismissing that from 30,000 feet as a false alarm without addressing the details of the argument is just plain silly.

You might have a case if I was looking at something unrelated to the mythologies in question, like paragraph structure, or how many times the letter "a" appears in the names of the people and places. If I did that I would be open to accusations of fishing for patterns until I found a similarity. But looking for similarities in the things that matter is quite legitimate. In fact it is how all science and scholarship proceeds.

Given that you mention pattern recognition I take it you are familiar with one of the fundamental theorems of that field: Watanabe's Ugly Duckling theorem? It is about the very problem you are trying to address. To summarize, I can establish any desired degree of similarity between any two objects by choosing my similarity criteria appropriately (the theorem states this in mathematical terms).

Anyone who actually does pattern recognition knows this theorem and also knows what it means: pattern recognition only works when you choose relevant criteria. Which of course is exactly what I was doing when comparing the various mythologies above: I compared their central themes.

So, rather than being dismissive with an unfocused broadside I suggest you address what I actually wrote.

Gerard Stafleu

I'm saying select any two things and you can find structural similarities. That's how the human mind works. This is particularly true if the two things are texts and subject to interpretation in order to be meaningful.

Therefore, any theory that attempts to "explain" one narrative by comparing it to another narrative has little value.

Clivedurdle · 01-12-2007, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

I'm saying select any two things and you can find structural similarities. That's how the human mind works. This is particularly true if the two things are texts and subject to interpretation in order to be meaningful.

Therefore, any theory that attempts to "explain" one narrative by comparing it to another narrative has little value.

Except

http://www.answers.com/topic/cladistics

Should we not always be attempting triangulation with other evidence?

gstafleu · 01-12-2007, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

I'm saying select any two things and you can find structural similarities. That's how the human mind works. This is particularly true if the two things are texts and subject to interpretation in order to be meaningful.

And I've given a detailed refutation of that position, which you don't seem to address.

Gerard Stafleu

Gamera · 01-15-2007, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Except

http://www.answers.com/topic/cladistics

Should we not always be attempting triangulation with other evidence?

Within the realm of biology perhaps (though cladistics has its critics among evolutionary biologists themselves). That's because we discern a mechanism for inheritance that is physical in nature -- DNA. So an etiological relationship very likely may exist between similar structures in organisms. In the universe of similar structures, we can test their relationships through DNA, and we have, and we have found that the vast majority are clearly not only structurally related, but related by DNA, showing relationship through descent.

The same cannot always be said about ideas, texts, and narratives. We have example after example of unrelated cultures developing structurally similar ideas, narratives, myths, etc. Indeed the universe of such memes is huge. Therefore, to claim that because a similarity exists in two narratives, the narratives must be related, is contrary to the bulk of the evidence of how narratives come into being. And thus pattern recorgnition is a better theory to explain the percieved similarities.

Gamera · 01-15-2007, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

And I've given a detailed refutation of that position, which you don't seem to address.

Gerard Stafleu

No, you really haven't. The problem is that mythologies are not some special discourse. They are narratives. And narratives are narratives are narratives. The Ikea Catalog intro is a narratives, with most of the basic structures of what you privilege as myth.

So I am not talking about comparing structures unrelated to myths. I'm talking about comparing narrative structures, and the universe of narrative structures is relatively small, showing up in Gilgamesh, the Gospel of Luke, Beowulf, Tacitus' Agricola, the March of the Penquins, and an Ikea catalog.

gstafleu · 01-16-2007, 05:07 PM

Gamera,

I don't think we'll make much progress talking generalities. I've given a specific instance of the similarity between certain myths and an element of the Eucharist. You have several times mentioned the intro of the Ikea catalog. Why don't you post something similar to what I did, taking elements from the Ikea catalog's intro and show similarity with the Eucharist. Remember the following points, though. 1) I pointed to similarities between the central elements of the myths and the central element of the Eucharist, not just some random elements that happen to fit. 2) I adduced a number of myths, so maybe you should look at the intros of a number of catalogs, taking a central element from each.

Once you have done this we can see if what you produced is as convincing (or not

) as my posting, if the similarities you adduce are as central to the sources as in my case, etc.

Good luck!

Gerard Stafleu

Gamera · 01-17-2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Gamera,

I don't think we'll make much progress talking generalities. I've given a specific instance of the similarity between certain myths and an element of the Eucharist. You have several times mentioned the intro of the Ikea catalog. Why don't you post something similar to what I did, taking elements from the Ikea catalog's intro and show similarity with the Eucharist. Remember the following points, though. 1) I pointed to similarities between the central elements of the myths and the central element of the Eucharist, not just some random elements that happen to fit. 2) I adduced a number of myths, so maybe you should look at the intros of a number of catalogs, taking a central element from each.

Once you have done this we can see if what you produced is as convincing (or not

) as my posting, if the similarities you adduce are as central to the sources as in my case, etc.

Good luck!

Gerard Stafleu

That's a challenge I can't resist! I don't have an Ikea catalog handy but I'll see what I do have in the way of an utterly unconnected text.

Gamera · 01-17-2007, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

Gamera,

I don't think we'll make much progress talking generalities. I've given a specific instance of the similarity between certain myths and an element of the Eucharist. You have several times mentioned the intro of the Ikea catalog. Why don't you post something similar to what I did, taking elements from the Ikea catalog's intro and show similarity with the Eucharist. Remember the following points, though. 1) I pointed to similarities between the central elements of the myths and the central element of the Eucharist, not just some random elements that happen to fit. 2) I adduced a number of myths, so maybe you should look at the intros of a number of catalogs, taking a central element from each.

Once you have done this we can see if what you produced is as convincing (or not

) as my posting, if the similarities you adduce are as central to the sources as in my case, etc.

Good luck!

Gerard Stafleu

Actually belay that prior post. I just looked at the Ikea online catalog and it'll do fine. You have access to it, and it's clear to me upon review that it has the same mythic origins as the Eucharist. I'll get back with my analysis shortly.

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01-16-2007, 05:07 PM	#18
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	Gamera, I don't think we'll make much progress talking generalities. I've given a specific instance of the similarity between certain myths and an element of the Eucharist. You have several times mentioned the intro of the Ikea catalog. Why don't you post something similar to what I did, taking elements from the Ikea catalog's intro and show similarity with the Eucharist. Remember the following points, though. 1) I pointed to similarities between the central elements of the myths and the central element of the Eucharist, not just some random elements that happen to fit. 2) I adduced a number of myths, so maybe you should look at the intros of a number of catalogs, taking a central element from each. Once you have done this we can see if what you produced is as convincing (or not ) as my posting, if the similarities you adduce are as central to the sources as in my case, etc. Good luck! Gerard Stafleu

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