Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 11-18-2009, 04:15 PM

I don't think that the New York courts will be consulting wikipedia for the definition of identity theft.

There are certain types of claiming a false identity that are clearly not covered - pranks, satire, or other instances where there is 1) no financial gain but also 2) no harm of any type. The brief talks about the "Yes Men" who impersonated representatives of the US Chamber of Commerce to make a point, but the Yes Men ended up being very open about what they had done.

The problem with claiming that this impersonation qualifies as a parody is that there is no sense of humor, no comedic exaggeration, none of the little hints that satirists usually add to their work to indicate the prank. This is not www.landoverbaptist.org or www.whitehouse.org

Golb's best defense is probably that his conduct is not clearly prohibited by the statute in question, and criminal laws must be strictly construed. This leaves him open to a civil suit by Schiffman, but Schiffman might have trouble proving actual damages since it appears that no one was actually taken in by the fake emails . . . but it all adds up to more legal fees.

And I think that most of the other participants in this thread are on their way to the SBL meeting in New Orleans, where this paper is scheduled:

Quote:

Scholars Behaving Badly: “Charles Gadda,” Raphael Golb, and the Campaign of Anonymity on the Internet to Promote Norman Golb and Smear His Rivals
Program Unit: Computer Assisted Research

Robert R. Cargill, University of California-Los Angeles

This paper will address the ongoing criminal investigation into the case of Raphael Golb, son of University of Chicago Oriental Institute professor Norman Golb, who allegedly used over 80 internet aliases to defend the academic views of his father concerning Qumran, and to harass, defame, smear, and harm the careers of multiple Dead Sea Scrolls scholars, including the author. This paper examines the growing use of the Internet by scholars in the forms of blogs, message groups, discussion boards, and email to discuss and promote their academic views. The paper will offer a list of recommended good practices for scholars to follow on the Internet to promote transparency, credibility, and professionalism, as well as a list of things to avoid online.

manwithdream · 11-18-2009, 05:47 PM

I have a neighbor who has been harassing me off and on for years, and I think that real harassment is a crime, but getting these emails are more like irritating prank phone calls than real criminal harassment. I have been threatened in person with violence, and I have to see the person every day. I have been screamed at repeatedly. The person is now telling neighbors that I am a pervert, and saying he saw me do certain bad things. There are worse things that I can't say because he always threatens to sue me for slander, and I don't want the headache. These scholars have been bothered, but they should deal with this in civil court and leave criminal court for the real crimes like threatening people. I am not saying they have not suffered. I just think what Golb did is not bad enough for a criminal charge. I am not trying to have my neighbor arrested because it will only lead to worse things between us, and I think Schiffman should try look away for the sake of peace between people, even though it would be hard to do this.

XKV8R · 11-20-2009, 10:32 AM

dr. schiffman is not a rabbi. he never said he was. some reporter misstated that he was, apparently confusing orthodox christianity and professor with rabbi.

in fact, i just asked him. he confirmed: not a rabbi.

but nice try...

btw, he just gave a great paper on the dead sea scrolls at asor.

XKV8R · 11-20-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

And I think that most of the other participants in this thread are on their way to the SBL meeting in New Orleans, where this paper is scheduled:

Quote:

Scholars Behaving Badly: “Charles Gadda,” Raphael Golb, and the Campaign of Anonymity on the Internet to Promote Norman Golb and Smear His Rivals
Program Unit: Computer Assisted Research

Robert R. Cargill, University of California-Los Angeles

This paper will address the ongoing criminal investigation into the case of Raphael Golb, son of University of Chicago Oriental Institute professor Norman Golb, who allegedly used over 80 internet aliases to defend the academic views of his father concerning Qumran, and to harass, defame, smear, and harm the careers of multiple Dead Sea Scrolls scholars, including the author. This paper examines the growing use of the Internet by scholars in the forms of blogs, message groups, discussion boards, and email to discuss and promote their academic views. The paper will offer a list of recommended good practices for scholars to follow on the Internet to promote transparency, credibility, and professionalism, as well as a list of things to avoid online.

i hear this will be a great paper ;-)

squiz · 11-20-2009, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I thus can see some reason for much of Charles Gadda's efforts, though I could not in any sense condone the anti-Schiffman activities.
spin

Although I can also understand his motivation, his actions have been totally counterproductive. What better way to discredit his father's ideas than to do what he has done? If you want to promote a minority view, you have to be extra thorough, extra reasonable, and extra polite.

manwithdream · 11-20-2009, 01:51 PM

XKV8R,

Why do you say Schiffman is not a rabbi? If he is an Orthodox Jew, he still follows the same rules about when it is OK to turn Jews in to the police, if that is what you are talking about.

You said he is Orthodox Christian in your posting, but I think you meant Orthodox Jew. Just like people need to understand the culture of ancient times to understand the Bible, you need to understand Orthodox Jewish culture now to understand Dr. Schiffman's situation. I am not a Talmudic scholar, but that rabbi is one, and he said there was no tort according to Jewish law. There are other Jewish rules that might apply to this case, and I am sure Schiffman knows them well. He has some hard decisions to make about what to do about Golb.

Toto · 11-20-2009, 02:43 PM

The NY Times here quotes a "Rabbi Lawrence Schiffman, a professor of Hebrew and Judaic Studies at New York University and an expert on early Christianity." I would think that the NY Times would want to correct that.

Wikipedia does not say he is a rabbi, nor does his website here (although it looks like he could play one on TV.)

A minor point.

When Jews were an insular persecuted minority in the US, they generally did not go to the police to settle disputes with fellow Jews - a sensible practice at the time. But there are also Biblical passages enjoining Christians from resorting to the courts, that are followed mostly in the breach.

DCHindley · 11-20-2009, 04:58 PM

No, he does not appear to be a rabbi, but he does appear to be an orthodox Jew. In other words, he is a fully "observant" Jew.

Maybe the yarmulke and the beard made someone think he was an Orthodox rabbi. I have met several Orthodox Jews in business settings, and believe me they are like anyone else, except for the hair, yarmulke, eating kosher and the beards. They use computers, drive nice cars, live in decent homes, etc.

My understanding is that Orthodox Jews have traditionally convened their own courts to try matters between them. The rabbis who act as arbitrators require that specific conditions apply before certain decisions are rendered. If the matter cannot be resolved between the parties, the arbitrator may allow the wronged party to file a civil lawsuit.

A party chooses which rabbi to arbitrate for them, and each subsect of orthodox Jews might prefer one rabbi over the other. The parties might choose completely different rabbis. Decisions of these rabbinic "courts" are not necessarily binding between the subsects. The ruling of a Conservative rabbi will probably not be accepted by an Orthodox one, for instance. IIUC, sometimes folks can shop for a rabbi until they get the ruling they want. The rabbis in question might have been saying "If you went to one of OUR courts, Dr. Schiffman, we'd have ruled against you before letting you sue a fellow Jew."

FWIW, Norman and Raphael Golb do not appear to be Orthodox Jews.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The NY Times here quotes a "Rabbi Lawrence Schiffman, a professor of Hebrew and Judaic Studies at New York University and an expert on early Christianity." I would think that the NY Times would want to correct that.

Wikipedia does not say he is a rabbi, nor does his website here (although it looks like he could play one on TV.)

A minor point.

When Jews were an insular persecuted minority in the US, they generally did not go to the police to settle disputes with fellow Jews - a sensible practice at the time. But there are also Biblical passages enjoining Christians from resorting to the courts, that are followed mostly in the breach.

fitter · 11-20-2009, 06:31 PM

Oy, oy, if he's not a rabbi I'm certainly sorry for thinking he was a rabbi!

But, to determine if he is (technically speaking) a rabbi, we need to find out if he went to a yeshiva and if he got his "smicha," which would mean that he is in fact (technically speaking) a rabbi. No doubt we will soon have the answer!

And it's so good to know that this important lecture is taking place at the SBL. Such an honor to the academy! Everyone who attends should feel privileged at witnessing such a moment, where the record is set straight once and for all.

spin · 11-20-2009, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I thus can see some reason for much of Charles Gadda's efforts, though I could not in any sense condone the anti-Schiffman activities.

Although I can also understand his motivation, his actions have been totally counterproductive.

You must admit, the status quo has done very well in ostracizing Golb senior for more than 15 years. So obviously...

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

What better way to discredit his father's ideas than to do what he has done?

...nothing junior does/did will make things worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

If you want to promote a minority view, you have to be extra thorough, extra reasonable, and extra polite.

Read Golb senior... well, to misquote Jack Nicholson's president of the USA, two out of three ain't bad. He's been extra thorough and extra reasonable. As for extra polite, he's made academic statements. The response has generally been less than rational. I mightn't agree with him too much, but he has done the study of the DSS a great service by maintaining a reasonable dissonant position.

spin

11-20-2009, 10:32 AM	#43
XKV8R Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: ucla, southern california Posts: 140	larry schiffman is not a rabbi dr. schiffman is not a rabbi. he never said he was. some reporter misstated that he was, apparently confusing orthodox christianity and professor with rabbi. in fact, i just asked him. he confirmed: not a rabbi. but nice try... btw, he just gave a great paper on the dead sea scrolls at asor.

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11-18-2009, 05:47 PM	#42
manwithdream Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: united states Posts: 156	I have a neighbor who has been harassing me off and on for years, and I think that real harassment is a crime, but getting these emails are more like irritating prank phone calls than real criminal harassment. I have been threatened in person with violence, and I have to see the person every day. I have been screamed at repeatedly. The person is now telling neighbors that I am a pervert, and saying he saw me do certain bad things. There are worse things that I can't say because he always threatens to sue me for slander, and I don't want the headache. These scholars have been bothered, but they should deal with this in civil court and leave criminal court for the real crimes like threatening people. I am not saying they have not suffered. I just think what Golb did is not bad enough for a criminal charge. I am not trying to have my neighbor arrested because it will only lead to worse things between us, and I think Schiffman should try look away for the sake of peace between people, even though it would be hard to do this.

11-20-2009, 01:51 PM	#46
manwithdream Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: united states Posts: 156	XKV8R, Why do you say Schiffman is not a rabbi? If he is an Orthodox Jew, he still follows the same rules about when it is OK to turn Jews in to the police, if that is what you are talking about. You said he is Orthodox Christian in your posting, but I think you meant Orthodox Jew. Just like people need to understand the culture of ancient times to understand the Bible, you need to understand Orthodox Jewish culture now to understand Dr. Schiffman's situation. I am not a Talmudic scholar, but that rabbi is one, and he said there was no tort according to Jewish law. There are other Jewish rules that might apply to this case, and I am sure Schiffman knows them well. He has some hard decisions to make about what to do about Golb.

11-20-2009, 02:43 PM	#47
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The NY Times here quotes a "Rabbi Lawrence Schiffman, a professor of Hebrew and Judaic Studies at New York University and an expert on early Christianity." I would think that the NY Times would want to correct that. Wikipedia does not say he is a rabbi, nor does his website here (although it looks like he could play one on TV.) A minor point. When Jews were an insular persecuted minority in the US, they generally did not go to the police to settle disputes with fellow Jews - a sensible practice at the time. But there are also Biblical passages enjoining Christians from resorting to the courts, that are followed mostly in the breach.

11-20-2009, 06:31 PM	#49
fitter Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: West Coast Posts: 19	Oy, oy, if he's not a rabbi I'm certainly sorry for thinking he was a rabbi! But, to determine if he is (technically speaking) a rabbi, we need to find out if he went to a yeshiva and if he got his "smicha," which would mean that he is in fact (technically speaking) a rabbi. No doubt we will soon have the answer! And it's so good to know that this important lecture is taking place at the SBL. Such an honor to the academy! Everyone who attends should feel privileged at witnessing such a moment, where the record is set straight once and for all.

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