mountainman

But Larkin31 you must understand that practically all academics and scholars in the field treat the theory of Eusebian history as if it were the historical truth, whereas it is really a theory of history assembled about three centuries after the events it describes.

Does anyone appreciate this simple fact?
Who has corroborated Eusebius' account?
Has science or archaeology corroborated it?

It was delivered to the Greek civilisation in the 4th century as historical research for those who might wish to explore the history of the "Early Christian historical presence". At the end of the day it must be a theory, not the gospel truth unquestioned and unquestionable.

Larkin31

I am well aware that scholars have differing opinions on Eusebius. Apologists credit him; others are more skeptical, to varying degrees.

Larkin31

Yes, you have.

But I am giving an actual published response from an eminent scholar in the field, and he uses the same documents (gospels) that you do (and that Price does) to make his point.

And then I ask you for your response to his logic. And all you say is, "I don't know know anything about his point" (after first saying that his point was nothing more than "feelings," which was totally false). But I just summarized it for you, and quite accurately.

So do you have anything to say about Crossan's point?

Or does anyone?

kcdad

I completely agree with your summary of Crossan's point. I also suspect Crossan is a lot closer to the truth than either the fundamentalist or skeptic literalists.

The evolution of the Jesus story is fascinating. For this reason primarily, I rely on Mark and the non-canonical writings balanced against Paul's letters rather than taking the Gospels and Epistles as a single entity. IMO, The New Testament as a whole is impossible to reconcile with its contradictions.

Larkin31

The contradictions, the interpolations, the references to the OT, and the lack of historical evidence are all problematic in different ways, and added together are a serious hurdle for the quest for HJ. But there are still questions to be answered, and still reasons that suggest that there was an HJ.

For example, that the HJ was crucified, although a fulfillment of an OT prophecy, was also a probable outcome for many Jews who would have questioned the authority, challenged the leaders, been arrogant or insubordinate when questioned, etc. The execution by the cross of a radical itinerant group leader would have surprised no one and could easily have been overlooked by historians--even if a minor group leader of a little renown--the Romans executed hundreds of persons a year (cf Crossan on Roman execution methods and numbers).

I just don't see enough here to dismiss the possibility in its entirety, and even Price admits that his claim is speculative (as many claims are about events of the life of a specific peasant from 2000 years ago).

aa5874

My thread is not about feelings. I am INTERESTED in credible historical sources that can show that the HJ is not a most SENSELESS proposition.

I HAVE asked you for historical sources of the HJ and you have completely failed to come up with one single credible historical source.


Can you NOW name one historical source of antiquity that mentioned Jesus of Nazareth AFTER reading your collection of assays?

I await your eager response with the historical source of your HJ of Nazareth.

You can't argue FOR HJ with only feelings and no history.

Loomis

In your opinion do the following passages warrant an investigation onto the possibility that Jesus/Joshua worship predates the time when historical Jesus supposedly lived?

Deuteronomy 18:15
The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers.

John 7:40
On hearing his words, some of the people said, "Surely this man is the Prophet."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19
“I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.”

John 10:25-26
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Deuteronomy 34:9-12 (A possible denial, a correction, a polemic against Jesus/Joshua worship)
Now Jesus/Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites listened to him and did what the Lord had commanded Moses. Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders the Lord sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.

Sirach 46:1
Now Jesus/Joshua son of Nun was valiant in the wars, and was the successor of Moses in prophecies

Hebrews 3:3
For he has come to deserve greater glory than Moses …

Zechariah 3:1 LXX
And the Lord shewed me Jesus/Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and the Devil stood on his right hand to resist him.

Hebrews 4:14
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

Zechariah 3:5-6
Take away the filthy raiment from him (Joshua/Jesus)… and clothe ye him with a long robe, and place a pure mitre upon his head.

Matthew 27:28-29
They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head.

Sibylline Oracle 5:345
And one shall come again from heaven, a man
Preeminent, whose hands on fruitful tree
By far the noblest of the Hebrews stretched,
Who at one time did make the sun stand still.

??? (Y/N) ???

It looks to me like Deuteronomy 34:9-12 is a polemic against Jesus/Joshua worship. When do you suppose it was written?

Larkin31

You don't seem to recall that I have already answered this question: I--and no one else--has any other sources than the few we already all know of. So we are all discussing the same sources. All these conclusions come from the same sources.

So, again, do you care to respond to Crossan's claim about the tenor in the shift of the depiction of Jesus over time in the Gospels?

Larkin31

And just so you know, the title of your thread and the mantra that you keep repeating is a CONCLUSION (your "thinking"), not a fact from a source. So what we are all doing here--and what Price does, and what Crossan does--is THINK (not feel) about the evidence from the sources and draw conclusions. I am asking you here to comment on someone else's "conclusion" other than your own.

Loomis

What is Crossan’s opinion on the following passages?

Deuteronomy 18:15
The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers.

John 7:40
On hearing his words, some of the people said, "Surely this man is the Prophet."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19
“I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.”

John 10:25-26
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Deuteronomy 34:9-12
Now Jesus/Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites listened to him and did what the Lord had commanded Moses. Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders the Lord sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.

Sirach 46:1
Now Jesus/Joshua son of Nun was valiant in the wars, and was the successor of Moses in prophecies

Hebrews 3:3
For he has come to deserve greater glory than Moses …

Zechariah 3:1 LXX
And the Lord shewed me Jesus/Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and the Devil stood on his right hand to resist him.

Hebrews 4:14
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

Zechariah 3:5-6
Take away the filthy raiment from him … and clothe ye him with a long robe, and place a pure mitre upon his head

Matthew 27:28-29
They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head.

Sibylline Oracle 5:345
And one shall come again from heaven, a man
Preeminent, whose hands on fruitful tree
By far the noblest of the Hebrews stretched,
Who at one time did make the sun stand still.

Call me a nut, but it seems to me like some sort of assessment is in order.