Freethought & Rationalism Archive

discordant · 06-13-2011, 10:02 PM

I don't think any of this stretches the imagination.

Thought Revolutions

Apocalypticism
Before the vision was reinterpreted as referring to events on this earth, no one expected a man named Jesus to come to Earth for a second time and bring in the kingdom of God (or some such kingdom) within the lifetime of the first century 'Christians'.

After the vision was reinterpreted as referring to events on this earth, the first century 'Christians' [who cannot be reliably dated] expected a man named Jesus to come to Earth for a second time and bring in the kingdom of God (or some such kingdom) within their lifetime [(just as some people still expect today)].
Belief in Jesus
Before the vision was reinterpreted as referring to events on this earth, there was no one who believed that a Jewish man named Jesus had lived and had been crucified and raised from the dead.

After the vision was reinterpreted as referring to events on this earth, there were people who believed that a Jewish man named Jesus had lived and had been crucified and raised from the dead.
Tenets of Belief

Messiah
Because of the vision or its subsequent development, Jesus is always called the Messiah/Christ.
Apocalypticism
Because of the vision or its subsequent development, all of the earliest 'Christian' sects/cults were apocalyptic.
Jesus
Because of the vision or its subsequent development, the figure head of the movement always has the same name: Jesus (the Hellenized form of the Hebrew/Aramaic 'yeshua').
Crucifixion
Because of the vision or its subsequent development, all of the Jesus story traditions involve the notion of crucifixion, no matter how down-played they make the event.

I'm probably not supplying these answers the way Doherty, or someone like him, would. I haven't settled on a preferred reconstruction, as he and others have.

ApostateAbe · 06-13-2011, 10:14 PM

discordant, that is great progress. Please don't leave out these questions:

Comparison to Other Explanations

Given the pattern laid out based on the above, are there any other religious sects/cults/etc. that have followed this same pattern in their inception?

What are they and (briefly) how do they follow this pattern?

discordant · 06-13-2011, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

discordant, that is great progress. Please don't leave out these questions:

Comparison to Other Explanations
Given the pattern laid out based on the above, are there any other religious sects/cults/etc. that have followed this same pattern in their inception?

Not precisely, to my knowledge. But that's not saying much.

Steven Carr · 06-13-2011, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

JonA thinks this is off topic, but it seems that the question of whether a historical Jesus is actually a good explanation of these facts is on the table.

But feel free to ignore this.

Jon A wants rational explanations for the birth of a new religious movement.

Rational explanations for new religious movements are hard to come by. He should ask either a psychiatrist or a policeman to explain why new religions are formed.

Apparently, Jon A claims that without exception all Jews thought the Messiah would be a conquering king, and challenges us to explain why one Jew thought he was the Messiah without his being a conquering king.

This is impossible to explain on the historical Jesus theory, as the starting assumption that Jon makes is that Jesus himself would be Jewish and would, by Jon's own statement of the 'facts', have expected a Messiah to be conquering king.

Therefore Jesus could not exist, as a Jew who did not think of a Messiah as a conquering king is a Jew who could not have existed, according to Jon.

Steven Carr · 06-14-2011, 12:03 AM

Jon A
After __________, the first century 'Christians' expected a man named Jesus to come to Earth for a second time and bring in the kingdom of God (or some such kingdom) within their lifetime.

CARR
Where does Paul say Jesus will come to Earth for a second time?

Or rather, third?

The first time , according to Paul, was during the Exodus when Jesus came to Earth as the rock which accompanied the Israelites.

When else does Paul say Jesus came to Earth?

aa5874 · 06-14-2011, 12:18 AM

There is NO credible source of antiquity that can show Christianity WITH a real Jesus.

CHRISTIANITY was ALWAYS WITHOUT a real JESUS.

Even in the NT, the description of Jesus was NOT REAL.

See Matthew 1.18, Luke 1.26-35, John 1.1-4 and Galatians 1.1-12.

Even in the NT, Jesus did NOT tell the Jews he was Christ and COMMANDED his disciples NOT to tell anyone he was CHRIST.

CHRISTIANITY STARTED WITHOUT JESUS in the NT.

CHRISTIANITY STARTED after JESUS WAS DEAD and his body had vanished.

Let us go to gMark and see what is WRITTEN.

Was there Christianity WITH or WITHOUT Jesus in gMark?

Mark 8.

Quote:

27 And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?

28 And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.

29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Peter answereth..... Thou art the Christ.

30 And he charged them that they should TELL NO MAN OF HIM......

So, from gMark we LEARN that Jesus did NOT tell the Jews he was Christ and WARNED his disciples to TELL NO MAN of HIM.

In gMARK there was NO CHRISTIANITY WITH JESUS.

CHRISTIANITY BEGAN AFTER Jesus was DEAD and his dead body had VANISHED or Ascended.

But, we will LEARN who or what was with Christianity in Acts of the Apostles.

When were the disciples FIRST called Christians in Acts?

WITH or WITHOUT JESUS?

It was WITHOUT JESUS.

In Acts 1.9, Jesus had ASCENDED through the clouds and he was GONE, NEVER to be seen again.

But, Christianity was NOT Started yet.

CHRISTIANITY MUST START with the HOLY GHOST.

It is IN the VERY BIBLE. It is in Acts 1.

Quote:

...8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you, and ye shall be witnesses unto me.... unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up, and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Again, after JESUS had VANISHED and promised the Holy Ghost the disciples HAD to WAIT until the DAY of Pentecost.

Christianity STARTED WITH the HOLY GHOST.

Christianity STARTED WITHOUT JESUS.

Examine Acts 11.26

Quote:

....And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch...

It is CLEAR NOW that even in the BIBLE that Christianity was WITHOUT Jesus. He was ALREADY dead, resurrected and in heaven in the NT.

There would be NO Christianity WITH JESUS. HE MUST GO AWAY.

Joh 16:7 -

Quote:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you but if I depart, I will send him unto you....

CHRISTIANITY CAN ONLY START if JESUS GO AWAY.

CHRISTIANITY was WITHOUT JESUS from the very start.

CHRISTIANITY was started WITH the HOLY GHOST. See Acts 2.

Tell NO MAN that CHRISTIANITY was STARTED WITH JESUS.

In the NT, JESUS WAS NOT ON EARTH WHEN CHRISTIANITY STARTED.

Zenaphobe · 06-14-2011, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenaphobe

How does one explain Mormonism without Moroni?

I see some parallels between the founding of Christianity and Mormonism.

The both have a charismatic founder- Paul - Joseph Smith

They both arise from previously established religions- Judaism - Christianity

Both are tethered to a claim of a revelation which "corrects" the errors of the host religion- Damascus road - Smith's communion with Moroni

They both arise and thrive among persecution and shunning by the host religion.

They both deviate from the theology of their predecessors but do not reject them.

How is it possible that a movement as successful as the Latter Day Saints could have gotten started based on the personal revelations claimed by Smith concerning an angel and some golden tablets which were never seen by anyone else?

If Smith didn't need a real Moroni to launch the LDS movement, why would Paul need a real Jesus to do begin Christianity?

If the Mormons had gained control of the political and religious realms of the United States and were able to suppress opposing views and promote their own in a manner like the Catholic church, people who questioned the historicity of Moroni and the golden tablets would probably be though of as fringe elements.

Maybe I'm off in left field somewhere with this? Be gentle. :grin:

Thank you for your input.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that Paul entirely (or mostly) invented Christianity, no?

If so, I have a couple of questions.

If so, why do you suppose that he would have done this? Also, how would you reconcile this with the evidence suggesting not only that there were other Christian groups around at the time of Paul that he didn't found, but that these groups didn't agree with Paul's theology at all?

I'm not disagreeing with you; but I would like some clarification.

Jon

Hey, quick response due to limited time, but I don't think the word "invented" conveys what I have in mind if that means Jesus was created "ex nihilo".

There was a lot of previous material at hand to work with, and the Hellenization of the Hebrew religion opened up the grafting of once foreign ideas into Judaism, ie. a God/Man messiah.

I need to read up some more on the rival groups of Christians you mention, what source material would someone recommend? Are we talking about the stuff in Paul's writings and Acts, or are there others?

Like I said, this is just a kernel of an idea, I don't necessarily think the founding of Christianity and Mormonism are totally analogous, but I think Mormonism illustrates the possibility of a non historical figure behind Christianity.

Thanks Abe for starting a new thread. I'm not even up to amateur level in all this, but I also don't have a unswerving commitment to one theory or another at this point and am testing the waters so to speak. I hope it's not seen as a waste of time. :blush:

dog-on · 06-14-2011, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

Thought Revolutions

Messianic Thinking

Before Christianity, Messianic Jews believed the Messiah was to be a king who raised an army, expelled the foreign rulers from Israel, and established Jewish reign in the region. (Some variations exist.) However, Jews still await the messiah.

After Christianity, a small group of Messianic Jews
believed the Messiah was not a king; he did not raise an army; he did not expel the foreign rulers from Israel; he did not establish Jewish reign in the region. Instead, he was a peasant; he had a rather small following (even if many people 'supposedly' knew about him); he was executed by the foreign rulers (Romans); he was resurrected; he ascended into heaven with a promise to return and fulfill all of the traditional Messianic expectations. Assuming the first Christians were Messianic Jews, of course...

Apocalypticism

Before later Christians, no one expected a man named Jesus to come to Earth for a second time and bring in the kingdom of God (or some such kingdom) within the lifetime of the first century 'Christians'.

After Paul, the first century 'Christians' expected a man god named Jesus to come to Earth for a second time and bring in the kingdom of God (or some such kingdom) within their lifetime.

Belief in Jesus

Before Mark's gospel, there was no one who believed that a Jewish man named Jesus had lived and had been crucified and raised from the dead.

After Mark's gospel, there were people who believed that a Jewish man named Jesus had lived and had been crucified and raised from the dead.

Tenets of Belief

Messiah

Because of Paul, Jesus is always called the Messiah/Christ.

Apocalypticism

Because of Paul, all of the earliest 'Christian' sects/cults were apocalyptic. Assuming that was the case...

Jesus

Because of Paul, the figure head of the movement always has the same name: Jesus (the Hellenized form of the Hebrew/Aramaic 'yeshua').

Crucifixion

Because of Paul, all of the Jesus story traditions involve the notion of crucifixion, no matter how down-played they make the event.

Explanation and Topic

Comparison to Other Explanations

Given the pattern laid out based on the above, are there any other religious sects/cults/etc. that have followed this same pattern in their inception?

What are they and (briefly) how do they follow this pattern?

All revealed religions. Judaism has Yahweh, Moslems have Allah, etc, etc, etc...

Quality of Explanation

The explanation can involve as few or as many assumptions as you desire.

The explanation can be as probable or as improbable as you desire.

The explanation can be as good or as bad as you desire.

Without assumptions, you really can't say much. You simply do not have the evidence to do so...

See above...

aa5874 · 06-14-2011, 08:06 AM

This OP is a PERFECT example of how "Chinese Whispers" can become "facts" without a single shred of credible evidence.

The poster who started the thread PRESUMES that Christianity was WITH a real Jesus and has COMPLETELY IGNORED the ACTUAL WRITTEN EVIDENCE in the very NT which he RELIED on.

It is JonA who MUST EXPLAIN CHRISTIANITY with a REAL JESUS.

The actual written evidence in the NT is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR.

CHRISTIANITY IS WITHOUT A REAL JESUS. CHRISTIANITY NEEDED A RESURRECTION.

A real JESUS cannot RESURRECT.

Let us EXAMINE the Pauline writings and STOP dealing with "CHINESE WHISPERS".

LOOK at 1 Cor 15

Quote:

....14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ, whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain. ye are yet in your sins...

Jona, when was the CHRISTIAN FAITH with a REAL Jesus?

The Christian FAITH MUST have a RESURRECTION according "Paul".

The CHRISTIAN FAITH would be a BIG LIE if there was NO RESURRECTION based on a Pauline writer.

But, RESURRECTIONS are BIG LIES. There are NO SUCH THINGS AS RESURRECTIONS.

Is it NOT Fiction, MERE MIS-GUIDED BELIEF or "Chinese Whispers" that JESUS was RAISED from the Dead?

The Pauline writers have EXPLAINED it so VERY WELL.

The Christian Faith does NOT NEED JESUS.

JESUS CANNOT RESURRECT.

The Christian Faith NEEDED A REAL BIG LIE, REAL MIS-GUIDED BELIEF or ACTUAL "CHINESE WHISPERS".

The Pauline writings have ESTABLISHED CHRISTIANITY WITHOUT JESUS.

The Pauline writings have EXPOSED the FALLACY.

1 Cor.15.15

Quote:

we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ, whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not....

"PAUL", The DEAD RISE NOT.

"PAUL", We have FOUND a FALSE WITNESS.

We have FOUND "PAUL"

The Christian FAITH is VAIN and was WITHOUT JESUS.

JonA · 06-14-2011, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Jon A wants rational explanations for the birth of a new religious movement.

No. I don't. I specifically said that the explanations could be anything you wanted them to be.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

Jon

06-13-2011, 10:02 PM	#31
discordant Junior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Perth Posts: 57	I don't think any of this stretches the imagination. Thought Revolutions Apocalypticism Before the vision was reinterpreted as referring to events on this earth, no one expected a man named Jesus to come to Earth for a second time and bring in the kingdom of God (or some such kingdom) within the lifetime of the first century 'Christians'. After the vision was reinterpreted as referring to events on this earth, the first century 'Christians' [who cannot be reliably dated] expected a man named Jesus to come to Earth for a second time and bring in the kingdom of God (or some such kingdom) within their lifetime [(just as some people still expect today)]. Belief in Jesus Before the vision was reinterpreted as referring to events on this earth, there was no one who believed that a Jewish man named Jesus had lived and had been crucified and raised from the dead. After the vision was reinterpreted as referring to events on this earth, there were people who believed that a Jewish man named Jesus had lived and had been crucified and raised from the dead. Tenets of Belief Messiah Because of the vision or its subsequent development, Jesus is always called the Messiah/Christ. Apocalypticism Because of the vision or its subsequent development, all of the earliest 'Christian' sects/cults were apocalyptic. Jesus Because of the vision or its subsequent development, the figure head of the movement always has the same name: Jesus (the Hellenized form of the Hebrew/Aramaic 'yeshua'). Crucifixion Because of the vision or its subsequent development, all of the Jesus story traditions involve the notion of crucifixion, no matter how down-played they make the event. I'm probably not supplying these answers the way Doherty, or someone like him, would. I haven't settled on a preferred reconstruction, as he and others have.

06-13-2011, 10:14 PM	#32
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	discordant, that is great progress. Please don't leave out these questions: Comparison to Other Explanations Given the pattern laid out based on the above, are there any other religious sects/cults/etc. that have followed this same pattern in their inception? What are they and (briefly) how do they follow this pattern?

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06-14-2011, 12:03 AM	#35
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Jon A After __________, the first century 'Christians' expected a man named Jesus to come to Earth for a second time and bring in the kingdom of God (or some such kingdom) within their lifetime. CARR Where does Paul say Jesus will come to Earth for a second time? Or rather, third? The first time , according to Paul, was during the Exodus when Jesus came to Earth as the rock which accompanied the Israelites. When else does Paul say Jesus came to Earth?

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