Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 03-18-2012, 01:09 PM

Quote:

But are you suggesting by implication that rabbinic judaism itself was only created by the time of our earliest texts?

no im not

judaism did rebuild itself after the fall of the temple, and the fall of the Sadducees

aa5874 · 03-18-2012, 01:31 PM

It is an extremely serious problem when outhouse presents a chronology that is NOT documented in gLuke 23.

In gLuke, the people made accusations against Jesus but Pilate found NO FAULT with him.

Luke 23

Quote:

1And the whole multitude of them arose , and led him unto Pilate. 2And they began to accuse him, saying , We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.3 And Pilate asked him, saying , Artthou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said , Thou sayest it. 4 Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man....

And later in the same Luke 23, Pilate stated that he would RELEASE Jesus.

Luke 23.13-16

Quote:

13And Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people,14Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold , I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:15No, nor yet Herod: for I sent you to him; and, lo , nothing worthy of death is done unto him. I will therefore Chastise him and RELEASE him.

outhouse · 03-18-2012, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It is an extremely serious problem when outhouse presents a chronology that is NOT documented in gLuke 23.

Luke 23

Quote:

In gLuke, the people made accusations against Jesus but Pilate found NO FAULT with him.

1And the whole multitude of them arose , and led him unto Pilate. 2And they began to accuse him, saying , We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.3 And Pilate asked him, saying , Artthou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said , Thou sayest it. 4 Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man....

And later in the same Luke 23, Pilate stated that he would RELEASE Jesus.

Luke 23.16

Quote:

I will therefore Chastise him and RELEASE him.

LOL what makes you think jesus ever met Pilate? there would be no need to meet him or Caiaphas.

we have jesus followers with him at the temple, but they all fled and hid after his arrest.

there were no witnesses to any part of the trial

stephan huller · 03-18-2012, 01:38 PM

More unfresh fish. Talmuds is perdy late, so's sources*needn't*go back far. You gotta hope them rabbis that talks about him in them Talmuds themselves provides a dating mechanismus, just as the rabbis what are called rabbis help to date when they first got called rabbis. Ain't no-one called rabbi before the second century. So who talks about Yeshu?? That may help givussa date.****

The Syrian church called him yeshu too presumably from the very beginning. A two and a half letter name for Jesus which wasn't preserved in Greek is referenced in Irenaeus (= ysu). Yeshu is the named used by Ephrem for Jesus. I don't think Abu'l Fath uses yeshu. But that's the fourteenth century I guess. Alternative titles for the Toledoth Yeshu include Ma'aseh Talui ("The Deeds of the Hanged One"), Ma'aseh de'oto we'et Beno ("The Deeds of That One and His Son"), and Ma'aseh Yeshu ("The Deeds of Jesus"). According to the Tol'doth Yeshu, Jesus' original name was Yehoshua. Later, when he became a heretic, his name was changed to Yeshu. The explanation given for this change is that it stands for an acronym "may his name and memory be blotted out" which means that it is a bullshit explanation. The Hebrew gospel of Matthew associated with Shem Tov has 'yeshua' in during the birth narratives and 'yeshu' everywhere else.

aa5874 · 03-18-2012, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

LOL what makes you think jesus ever met Pilate? there would be no need to meet him or Caiaphas.

I have SHOWED you the WRITTEN statements of the source YOU provided.

You INTRODUCE gLuke as evidence that Jesus was a TAX evader but your source, Luke 23, has destroyed your credibility.

In Luke 23 Jesus was EXONERATED of all accusations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

...we have jesus followers with him at the temple, but they all fled and hid after his arrest.

there were no witnesses to any part of the trial

LOL!!!! What makes you think jesus really had followers??? What makes you think Jesus was human???

In gLuke Jesus was the Holy thing of a Ghost. See Luke 1.26-35

stephan huller · 03-18-2012, 02:49 PM

The Yeshu passage in Sanhedrin 43a

Quote:

MISHNAH. IF THEN THEY FIND HIM INNOCENT, THEY DISCHARGE HIM; BUT IF NOT, HE GOES FORTH TO BE STONED, AND A HERALD PRECEDES HIM [CRYING]: SO AND SO, THE SON OF SO AND SO, IS GOING FORTH TO BE STONED BECAUSE HE COMMITTED SUCH AND SUCH AN OFFENCE, AND SO AND SO ARE HIS WITNESSES. WHOEVER KNOWS ANYTHING IN HIS FAVOUR, LET HIM COME AND STATE IT.

GEMARA. Abaye said; It must also be announced: On such and such a day, at such and such and hour, and in such and such a place [the crime was committed], in case there are some who know [to the contrary], so that they can come forward and prove the witnesses Zomemim.32

AND A HERALD PRECEDES HIM etc. This implies, only immediately before [the execution], but not previous thereto.33 [In contradiction to this] it was taught: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu34 was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!35 — Ulla retorted: 'Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence could be made? Was he not a Mesith [enticer], concerning whom Scripture says, Neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him?36 With Yeshu however it was different, for he was connected with the government [or royalty, i.e., influential].'

Ulla was a Palestinian rabbi from the beginning of the fourth century so the story cannot be later than the third century.

Sheshbazzar · 03-18-2012, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

you know this better then you leed on.

you also know he was questioned with his life on the line for tax evasion, and chose the middle ground.

Where within these texts is he charged with tax evasion?

its not just luke 23;2

"They began to accuse him, saying, "We found this man perverting the nation, forbidding paying taxes to Caesar, and saying that he himself is Christ, a king." - Luke 23:2

matthew 17-25-27

he states

the subjects are exempt

only foreigners should pay

luke 15-1 "all" tax collectors came to listen to him

he wasnt preaching to them to take more money

perverting the nation is what it amounts to. going back to luke 23;2

again this was all softened up by the roman authors and ignored by paul alltogether.

no matter how you slice it jews hated romans and their taxation, and a poor peasant jew from Galilee would have hated romans and taxation. I think jesus was smart enough to be a different kind of zealot and try and beat the romans at their own game. he failed and was still killed.

during jesus childhood there was a tax war
jesus is questioned about paying taxes a few days before his death
jesus calls the temple/bank "thieves" and tosses the bank tellers money over
jesus is called a tax evader and perverting the nation
jesus is put on a cross
there is another tax war and the temple falls shortly after his death.

the temple incident is what gets jesus killed, starting a riot or disturbance during the huge payday event going on while tensions were high would get you killed without a trial.

preachers were a dime a dozen and would not get you killed for preaching about yahweh

messing with roman currency would get you killed instantly

why would poor people rememeber him, he was a martyr, and the roman authors glossed over all the anti roman material when they stole the religion

You should have learned by now not to follow Adam's bad example of not quoting the actual texts that you that wish to use as your proofs.

As you have stupidly followed Adam's bad example, I'm going to have to the job for you;

Quote:

24. Ἐλθόντων δὲ αὐτῶν εἰς Καπερναούμ, προσῆλθον οἱ τὰ δίδραχμα λαμβάνοντες τῷ Πέτρῳ καὶ εἶπον, Ὁ διδάσκαλος ὑμῶν οὐ τελεῖ τὰ δίδραχμα (Matt 17:24 TextusReceptus)

Quote:

24. When they had come to Capernaum, those who received The [Temple] tax came to Peter and said, "Does your Teacher not pay The [Temple] tax?"

25. He said, "Yes." And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?"

26. Peter said to Him, "From strangers." Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free.

27 "Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; [fn] take that and give it to them for Me and you."

(Matt 17:24-27 NKJV)

Or

Quote:

24. After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay The Temple tax [fn]?

25. "Yes, he does," he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes--from their own sons or from others?"

26. "From others," Peter answered. "Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him.

27. "But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."

(Matt 17:24-27 NIV)

Or

Quote:

24 On their arrival in Capernaum, the collectors of The Temple tax [fn] came to Peter and asked him, "Doesn't your teacher pay The Temple tax?"

25. "Yes, he does," Peter replied. Then he went into the house. But before he had a chance to speak, Jesus asked him, "What do you think, Peter? Do kings tax their own people or the people they have conquered?

26. "They tax the people they have conquered," Peter replied. "Well, then," Jesus said, "the citizens are free!

27 However, we don't want to offend them, so go down to the lake and throw in a line. Open the mouth of the first fish you catch, and you will find a large silver coin.[fn] Take it and pay the tax for both of us."

(Matt 17:24-27 NLT)

[fn]17:24 Greek the two-drachma [tax]; also in 17:24b. See Exod 30:13-16; Neh 10:32-33.
[fn]17:27 Greek a stater [a Greek coin equivalent to four drachmas].

edit addition. That is the requisite Temple Tax payment for 2 individuals.

This Tax had nothing to do with the Romans, nor any taxation imposed by the Romans, contrary to your uneducated misunderstanding of the texts.

It was the Scripturally demanded tax payment to 'them' of The Jewish Temple priesthood of two dracomons -being a δίδραχμα 'didrachmon' each. which was paid toThe TEMPLE tax collectors with one silver stater, the equivlent of four drachmas, or 'one shekel of the sanctuary'. One half-shekel each.
Levied and collected in accordance with the taxation system of Exod 30:13-16 & Neh 10:32-33

And the Master is here telling Peter that in The Kingdom, the citizens are the Kings own sons and by being sons, are free from obligation to pay taxes to their own Father.

These verses have absolutely nothing at all to do with Roman taxation, or with resisting Roman taxation.

.

Bernard Muller · 03-18-2012, 03:27 PM

to Spin,

Quote:

Of course it assumes that what doesn't offend must be genuine. This is a prevalent blunder.

I went much further than removing the offending stuff. Through critical analysis, I removed 'itinerant' and most of 'preacher', also all parables and most sayings. What's left was a lower class Galilean, who during his last year of his life, had some local & limited fame (because he was credited of healing), and through concurrence of circumstances, got crucified mocked as "king of the Jews". OK, the later part does need some explanations. From my website:

Quote:

- Right after Pilate took over as procurator (and/or prefect) in Judea, there is an unprecedented series of events in Jerusalem & Cesarea (Josephus' Wars II, IX, 2-3 & Ant., XVIII, III, 1), with exceptionally good outcomes, inviting the Jews to think God is back looking after them. Also, this episode weakens Pilate's rule, allowing for John the Baptist (JtB) and the many Jews going to him (and later a certain royal welcome near Jerusalem) (HJ-1b).

- JtB attracts large crowds for a few months (spring of 27CE), preaching God's Kingdom (of the old prophecies) is near, better to be "cleansed" in order to avoid the accompanying God's wrath (HJ-1b).

- Jesus enters here, so far as a lower class, uneducated, rural Jew from Galilee (HJ-1a).
He stays around JtB, among others (HJ-1b).

- Jesus goes to Capernaum right after JtB's arrest. Then two small successive events happen on Sabbath day, creating a short-lived hysteria around Jesus' alleged healing power (HJ-2a).

- After Jesus is credited to have healed a man with skin disease (in the nearby villages), another hysteria takes hold and gets known all the way to Jerusalem (80 miles away) and beyond (HJ-2a).

- Peripherally, Jesus talks about a (down to earth) message well adapted to the times (right after JtB's one: "Kingdom to come") and his milieu (rural Galilee): the Kingdom is coming soon (on earth) and it will benefit only the poor (Jews) (HJ-2b).

- At that time, JtB, rumored to be the future (human) ruler (king) of the Kingdom (HJ-1b), is executed by Herod Antipas (HJ-3a).

- Then, some Judean/Hellenist activist Jews interpret the healings by Jesus as a Sign; and he is thought to be the One, replacing (or possessed by) JtB (that's not a leap of faith, this part is multi-documented in GMark) (HJ-3a).

- So, next spring, Jesus gets a "royalish" welcome by some near Jerusalem, days before the Passover (HJ-3a).

- He feels encouraged enough to do the disturbance ("cleansing" in the temple) (HJ-3a).

- Because of that (and the welcome), he is soon arrested (abandoned by the Galileans) and executed (without trials and as a deterrent). A mocking sign is put on his cross, "the king of the Jews" (spring of 28CE) (HJ-3a).

- Later, another event (Josephus' Wars II, IX, 4 & Ant., XVIII, III, 2) will make most Jews doubt the Kingdom (to come soon) and re-establish Roman full authority (and fear) over Judea. But some hellenized Jews will keep the hope alive by looking at certain recent events, the Scriptures, Pharisaic beliefs, Philo of Alexandria's writings, etc. ... (see HJ-3b for the post-crucifixion beginning of Christianity)

Quote:

If we take out of the Zeus story the offending bits we do get a much more reasonable story of a domineering guy who liked drinking, whoring and fighting, and who had a manipulating wife who naturally didn't like his extramarital sexual activity, but couldn't do much to stop the illicit desire, so she took it out on the various objects of that desire.

Zeus was not pictured as born from a human mother & father. Some stories about him and wife are placed in some high places, others on earth (with Zeus taking a docetist body of his choice). So there are differences.

Quote:

OK, that sounds much more acceptable and shows that we can manipulate data to be more like what we want, though without knowing that the result reflects any reality.

But why, you and most people on this forum, think the result cannot reflect any reality? More so if a very minimal HJ, with many deletions and no additions (relative with the gospels) can be a link (crucial but little) in a chain of events leading to the creation of Christianity? Actually, there are clues in the gospels (talking about hostile witnesses!), that without Jesus, a Christianity could have started from John the Baptist (it almost did that in Babylon with the Mandeans).

Quote:

but do you know for sure that there is actually something tangible behind it

How are we going to know if we do not try? And do we have to know for sure? A probability would be enough.

aa5874 · 03-18-2012, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

If we take out of the Zeus story the offending bits we do get a much more reasonable story of a domineering guy who liked drinking, whoring and fighting, and who had a manipulating wife who naturally didn't like his extramarital sexual activity, but couldn't do much to stop the illicit desire, so she took it out on the various objects of that desire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernard Muller

Zeus was not pictured as born from a human mother & father. Some stories about him and wife are placed in some high places, others on earth (with Zeus taking a docetist body of his choice). So there are differences.

Jesus was the Son of a Holy Ghost, and God the Creator.

Dialogue with Trypho

Quote:

in the fables of those who are called Greeks, it is written that Perseus was begotten of Danae, who was a virgin; he who was called among them Zeus having descended on her in the form of a golden shower.

And further, Justin Martyr did state that the Jesus story is NOT different to that of Jupiter [Zeus]

First Apology

Quote:

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.

Jupiter is the Roman equivalent of the Greek Myth ZEUS.

Sheshbazzar · 03-18-2012, 04:27 PM

And a mythical Jee-zeus ain't one bit better. :Cheeky:

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-18-2012, 01:38 PM	#264
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	More unfresh fish. Talmuds is perdy late, so's sourcesneedn'tgo back far. You gotta hope them rabbis that talks about him in them Talmuds themselves provides a dating mechanismus, just as the rabbis what are called rabbis help to date when they first got called rabbis. Ain't no-one called rabbi before the second century. So who talks about Yeshu?? That may help givussa date.**** The Syrian church called him yeshu too presumably from the very beginning. A two and a half letter name for Jesus which wasn't preserved in Greek is referenced in Irenaeus (= ysu). Yeshu is the named used by Ephrem for Jesus. I don't think Abu'l Fath uses yeshu. But that's the fourteenth century I guess. Alternative titles for the Toledoth Yeshu include Ma'aseh Talui ("The Deeds of the Hanged One"), Ma'aseh de'oto we'et Beno ("The Deeds of That One and His Son"), and Ma'aseh Yeshu ("The Deeds of Jesus"). According to the Tol'doth Yeshu, Jesus' original name was Yehoshua. Later, when he became a heretic, his name was changed to Yeshu. The explanation given for this change is that it stands for an acronym "may his name and memory be blotted out" which means that it is a bullshit explanation. The Hebrew gospel of Matthew associated with Shem Tov has 'yeshua' in during the birth narratives and 'yeshu' everywhere else.

03-18-2012, 04:27 PM	#270
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	And a mythical Jee-zeus ain't one bit better. :Cheeky:

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.