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Old 09-20-2007, 09:19 AM   #21
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I wish you had dealt with my previous long post. It was attempting to outline some of the reasons why I can't agree with your views.
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I think that Genesis 1 lists the events of creation, but Genesis 2 goes into a few more details. Maybe in Genesis 1 plants and trees were created, but only sea plants and swamp trees grew at first. Then animals were made. And then Adam and Eve were made in one day, but a lot might have happened in that day.
You must start with the text, not your desires for coherence. This would you an injection of your ideas on the text. The coherence of the text may work on other criteria than those you work with.

I asked you for example why the writer would talk about sea flora when he talks about fruit trees. Do you know of any swamp fruit trees? Do you know of there having been any swamp trees on the Palestinian coast? Do you know of any swamps on the Levantine coast that might have inspired the writer?

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I don't know much about plants and trees, so maybe you can tell me if swamp trees and sea plants fit the description of the creation of plants and trees in Genesis 1.
Swamp fruit trees? 1:11 specifically talks of fruit trees bearing fruit, fruit as in the fruit that Adam and Eve ate of. I can see no way at all to read into the text what you are trying to do, when you introduce what appears to me to be a totally foreign idea to the historical context, ie swamp trees and sea plants. You need to do the footwork here. If you think that there is evidence which suggests that the normal reading of the text should be passed over, then you should show the evidence. I can only show you the evidence I see.


spin
The reason I did not answer your question about how the writer knew about trees that were not in Israel or maybe even the area where the garden of Eden was supposed to be is that the writer of Genesis 1 is supposed to be G-d who knows about every kind of plant and tree. Genesis 1 tells the creation of plants and trees every where on earth, so that means not just Israel or where ever the garden of Eden was.

Plants and trees that grow in bodies of water or at the edges of bodies of water might have been the kind that grew first. The writer of Genesis does not say only water plants and trees grew at first, but when I read in Genesis 2 that land plants did not grow yet because it did not rain, I just assumed that the other plants and trees were water plants and trees.

I looked up swamp trees on the internet and it mentions all kinds of exotic plants and trees, and I think some of them grow fruits, but Adam and Eve according to Genesis did not eat off of swamp trees, but a garden on land.
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Old 09-20-2007, 09:54 AM   #22
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The reason I did not answer your question about how the writer knew about trees that were not in Israel or maybe even the area where the garden of Eden was supposed to be is that the writer of Genesis 1 is supposed to be G-d who knows about every kind of plant and tree. Genesis 1 tells the creation of plants and trees every where on earth, so that means not just Israel or where ever the garden of Eden was.
God is in the third person. Someone is narrating his actions, so, no, god is not the writer.

Besides, we have enough parallels to know from Babylonian and other literature that the description in Gen 1 is not totally original to Genesis. We know why the chaotic waters were called Tiamat. We know why the divine wind was present in 1:2. These accounts are eventually derived from the same basic sources.

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Plants and trees that grow in bodies of water or at the edges of bodies of water might have been the kind that grew first. The writer of Genesis does not say only water plants and trees grew at first, but when I read in Genesis 2 that land plants did not grow yet because it did not rain, I just assumed that the other plants and trees were water plants and trees.
You seem to be apologizing for the text. You don't seem to be working with it, but trying to update it to make it fit some version of modern science.

I've already indicated that the trees in 1:11 are described as ordinary fruit trees, yet you insist on changing the text to mean something that is not there. Do look at 1:11. Let the earth sprout grass, the herbs that produce seed, the fruit tree that makes fruit according to its kind [TD$) D$) ($B MZRY( ZRY( (C PRY ($H PRY L:MYNW]. Note the TD$) D$), "sprout sprouts". Also note (C PRY (or etz peri), "fruit trees". These strongly suggest ordinary land flora of the more domestic varieties.

Seaweed, mangroves etc., cannot be found in 1:11. Why do you insist on something that plainly cannot be found in the text?

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I looked up swamp trees on the internet and it mentions all kinds of exotic plants and trees, and I think some of them grow fruits, but Adam and Eve according to Genesis did not eat off of swamp trees, but a garden on land.
Same words in 1:11 and 3:2 "fruit" [PRY] and "tree" [(C]. There is nothing at all in the text to suggest to you "swamp trees". You're not reading the text. You must deal with what the text says and I'm sorry you're not showing me that you are at the moment.


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Old 09-20-2007, 10:40 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by manwithdream View Post
The reason I did not answer your question about how the writer knew about trees that were not in Israel or maybe even the area where the garden of Eden was supposed to be is that the writer of Genesis 1 is supposed to be G-d who knows about every kind of plant and tree. Genesis 1 tells the creation of plants and trees every where on earth, so that means not just Israel or where ever the garden of Eden was.
God is in the third person. Someone is narrating his actions, so, no, god is not the writer.

Besides, we have enough parallels to know from Babylonian and other literature that the description in Gen 1 is not totally original to Genesis. We know why the chaotic waters were called Tiamat. We know why the divine wind was present in 1:2. These accounts are eventually derived from the same basic sources.


You seem to be apologizing for the text. You don't seem to be working with it, but trying to update it to make it fit some version of modern science.

I've already indicated that the trees in 1:11 are described as ordinary fruit trees, yet you insist on changing the text to mean something that is not there. Do look at 1:11. Let the earth sprout grass, the herbs that produce seed, the fruit tree that makes fruit according to its kind [TD$) D$) ($B MZRY( ZRY( (C PRY ($H PRY L:MYNW]. Note the TD$) D$), "sprout sprouts". Also note (C PRY (or etz peri), "fruit trees". These strongly suggest ordinary land flora of the more domestic varieties.

Seaweed, mangroves etc., cannot be found in 1:11. Why do you insist on something that plainly cannot be found in the text?

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Originally Posted by manwithdream View Post
I looked up swamp trees on the internet and it mentions all kinds of exotic plants and trees, and I think some of them grow fruits, but Adam and Eve according to Genesis did not eat off of swamp trees, but a garden on land.
Same words in 1:11 and 3:2 "fruit" [PRY] and "tree" [(C]. There is nothing at all in the text to suggest to you "swamp trees". You're not reading the text. You must deal with what the text says and I'm sorry you're not showing me that you are at the moment.


spin
I don't think you answered my comment from yesterday about Gen 2:19 being grammatically wrong if it is supposed to say that Adam named the animals because it says "he will call to it (masculine)" and "its name" (masculine) instead of feminine for the words "living soul" (feminine).
I did not give the reasons, but now I am. I gave other possible translations that I am guessing might make sense.

The reason I discussed "swamp trees", etc. is to show that Gen 1 and 2 can fit together, since Gen 2 says it did not rain yet. I wanted to see if some fruit trees grew from the earth close to bodies of water, even if it did not rain. I probably should look at the quotes again, and reconsider my ideas.
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Old 09-20-2007, 06:15 PM   #24
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I don't think you answered my comment from yesterday about Gen 2:19 being grammatically wrong if it is supposed to say that Adam named the animals because it says "he will call to it (masculine)" and "its name" (masculine) instead of feminine for the words "living soul" (feminine).
I did not give the reasons, but now I am. I gave other possible translations that I am guessing might make sense.
Have you looked at the text? Seriously, have you? If so, have a look, say, at Gen 17:15 and tell me the grammatical difference between $MW, rendered "her name", in 17:15 and $MW, rendered "its name" in 2:19.

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Originally Posted by manwithdream View Post
The reason I discussed "swamp trees", etc. is to show that Gen 1 and 2 can fit together, since Gen 2 says it did not rain yet. I wanted to see if some fruit trees grew from the earth close to bodies of water, even if it did not rain. I probably should look at the quotes again, and reconsider my ideas.
Do so. It's unsupported by the text therefore unjustifiable.


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