Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sotto voce · 04-28-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luca

thanks to all the posters for the debate and information;
I would like however to go back to my original post which asked, among others, why there is
no trace of exorcism in the Old Testament (although there are a few demons here and there)

That has been explained.

Quote:

while the NT is practically an uninterrupted sequence of exorcisms and demon stories.

That's a great exaggeration, but it's been explained also.

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-28-2012, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Why is it justifiable? Ridicule of belief in demons or exorcism, that is, not ridicule of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

Because it is a ridiculous belief, but more than that, because it is a dangerous one which has led to would be exorcists kidnapping people, holding them hostage for days while they enact this nonsense, and have sometimes actually ended up killing their victims.

arnoldo · 04-28-2012, 05:07 PM

Josephus, in Antiquities of the Jews, Book VI, reviews the account of Saul’s exorcism by David.

Quote:

But as for Saul, some strange and demoniacal disorders came upon him, and brought upon him such suffocations as were ready to choke him; for which the physicians could find no other remedy but this, That if any person could charm those passions by singing, and playing upon the harp, they advised them to inquire for such a one, and to observe when these demons came upon him and disturbed him, and to take care that such a person might stand over him, and play upon the harp, and recite hymns to him. (16) Accordingly Saul did not delay, but commanded them to seek out such a man. And when a certain stander-by said that he had seen in the city of Bethlehem a son of Jesse, who was yet no more than a child in age, but comely and beautiful, and in other respects one that was deserving of great regard, who was skillful in playing on the harp, and in singing of hymns, [and an excellent soldier in war,] he sent to Jesse, and desired him to take David away from the flocks, and send him to him, for he had a mind to see him, as having heard an advantageous character of his comeliness and his valor. So Jesse sent his son, and gave him presents to carry to Saul. And when he was come, Saul was pleased with him, and made him his armor-bearer, and had him in very great esteem; for he charmed his passion, and was the only physician against the trouble he had from the demons, whensoever it was that it came upon him, and this by reciting of hymns, and playing upon the harp, and bringing Saul to his right mind again.

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/t...phus/ant6.html

In reference to the gospels it appears that the synoptics all have accounts of exorcisms whereas the gJohn lacks any such accounts. :constern01:

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-28-2012, 06:56 PM

The exorcisms basically lose all relevance outside of the original tradition, and might have even become an embarrassment. I still think those stories come from some kind of genuine, ultra-provincial, archaic, backwater activities holding on among the rustics of Freaking Nowhere, Galilee. Rural culture is always more superstitious than the big city.

That's my hypothesis, anyway. I think there could well be a real exorcist (even if it's only as part of composite) behind those stories. There is no reason for Gentiles to invent it, and the Christian movement loses interest in demons pretty quickly after it leaves Palestine.

aa5874 · 04-28-2012, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

The exorcisms basically lose all relevance outside of the original tradition, and might have even become an embarrassment. I still think those stories come from some kind of genuine, ultra-provincial, archaic, backwater activities holding on among the rustics of Freaking Nowhere, Galilee. Rural culture is always more superstitious than the big city.

That's my hypothesis, anyway. I think there could well be a real exorcist (even if it's only as part of composite) behind those stories. There is no reason for Gentiles to invent it, and the Christian movement loses interest in demons pretty quickly after it leaves Palestine.

Please identify an accurate story about Jesus. What exorcism stories are you referring to??? Mark 3, Mark 5, Mark 9??

You BELIEVE your own stories that come from "the rustics of Freaking Nowhere".

It is most mind boggling that you state Casey claimed that the Piggies and Demons were MOST likely made up but still say there is no reason for Gentiles to invent stuff.

What contradictions!!!

Who made up the Piggy/Demon story???

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-28-2012, 07:49 PM

Mark made up the piggy demon story. He made it up right out of his ass. That doesn't mean a couple of those less fantastic exorcism stories in Mark (the one in the synagogue is really nothing, he basically yells at a guy and the guy falls down. Not that impressive) can't be representative of some kind of genuine activities or practices going on around Gennesrath.

Maurice Casey thinks a couple of the stories (just a couple) have some kind of authentic anecdotal source. I don't say that, exactly, I just think they could reflect knowledge of provincial Galilean practices.

aa5874 · 04-28-2012, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Mark made up the piggy demon story. He made it up right out of his ass. That doesn't mean a couple of those less fantastic exorcism stories in Mark (the one in the synagogue is really nothing, he basically yells at a guy and the guy falls down. Not that impressive) can't be representative of some kind of genuine activities or practices going on around Gennesrath...

I am so DELIGHTED that you admitted that the author of gMark was an OUT-OF-THE-ASS writer for his Piggy/Demon story.

This is EXACTLY what I wanted you to ADMIT.

It is incredible that HJers still use gMark as history when it can be seen that gMark was an OUT-OF-THE-ASS writer.

Virtually every chapter of gMark up to the 10th has an OUT-OF-THE-ASS story, in fact, perhaps all events about Jesus are Out-Of-The-Ass stories.

HJers and Creationist use gMark as history.

andrewcriddle · 04-29-2012, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luca

One possible reason is the influence of hellenization and the conflict with the new cults brought by the Romans and Greeks; another one perhaps is that the OT authors despised exorcisms as "peasant's religion" and had no interest in that. It seems to me that exorcisms where unknown in Roman or Greek religion, is that right?
I would be interested in hearing more opinions on this.

exorcism lists some interesting parallels including some legends about Apollonius of Tyana.

Andrew Criddle

aa5874 · 04-29-2012, 10:35 AM

I find it extremely disturbing that in light of ALL the Out-Of-The-Ass stories in gMark that people still grovel in the NT for history and do so WITHOUT a shred of Corroboration.

The Baptism story, the Triumphal Entry and the Trial of Jesus are ALL OUT-OF-THE-ASS stories. They make NO sense. They are NOT history.

Why is NOT gMark just a story that people BELIEVED that was merely written sometime in the 2nd century which does NOT require the Conspiracy Theories from HJers???

HJers TODAY, as we speak, BELIEVE in their HEART that the Jesus of gMark was real SIMPLY based on what they have read and REFUSE to accept that people of antiquity did the very same thing.

There was NO Conspiracy. People of antiquity were NO different to HJers today.

All BELIEVE gMark. ALL have been duped.

Christians, Fundamentalists, and HJers ALL BELIEVE the Jesus story even with ALL the OUT-OF-THE-ASS stories and do so without corroboration.

HJers exhibit the Blindest of Blindest Faith--Faith without Trust--Faith in admitted unreliable sources.

arnoldo · 04-29-2012, 02:44 PM

Justin Martyr also provides alleged accounts of failed exorcists in his 2 Apology,6.

Quote:

But "Jesus," His name as man and Saviour, has also significance. For He was made man also, as we before said, having been conceived according to the will of God the Father, for the sake of believing men, and for the destruction of the demons. And now you can learn this from what is under your own observation. For numberless demoniacs throughout the whole world, and in your city, many of our Christian men exorcising them in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, have healed and do heal, rendering helpless and driving the possessing devils out of the men, though they could not be cured by all the other exorcists, and those who used incantations and drugs.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...ndapology.html

Interestingly, Acts 19:13-16 also has an account of a failed exorcists which may’ve inspired Justin Martyr to write of similar events allegedly happening in the second century.

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04-28-2012, 06:56 PM	#54
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	The exorcisms basically lose all relevance outside of the original tradition, and might have even become an embarrassment. I still think those stories come from some kind of genuine, ultra-provincial, archaic, backwater activities holding on among the rustics of Freaking Nowhere, Galilee. Rural culture is always more superstitious than the big city. That's my hypothesis, anyway. I think there could well be a real exorcist (even if it's only as part of composite) behind those stories. There is no reason for Gentiles to invent it, and the Christian movement loses interest in demons pretty quickly after it leaves Palestine.

04-28-2012, 07:49 PM	#56
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Mark made up the piggy demon story. He made it up right out of his ass. That doesn't mean a couple of those less fantastic exorcism stories in Mark (the one in the synagogue is really nothing, he basically yells at a guy and the guy falls down. Not that impressive) can't be representative of some kind of genuine activities or practices going on around Gennesrath. Maurice Casey thinks a couple of the stories (just a couple) have some kind of authentic anecdotal source. I don't say that, exactly, I just think they could reflect knowledge of provincial Galilean practices.

04-29-2012, 10:35 AM	#59
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	I find it extremely disturbing that in light of ALL the Out-Of-The-Ass stories in gMark that people still grovel in the NT for history and do so WITHOUT a shred of Corroboration. The Baptism story, the Triumphal Entry and the Trial of Jesus are ALL OUT-OF-THE-ASS stories. They make NO sense. They are NOT history. Why is NOT gMark just a story that people BELIEVED that was merely written sometime in the 2nd century which does NOT require the Conspiracy Theories from HJers??? HJers TODAY, as we speak, BELIEVE in their HEART that the Jesus of gMark was real SIMPLY based on what they have read and REFUSE to accept that people of antiquity did the very same thing. There was NO Conspiracy. People of antiquity were NO different to HJers today. All BELIEVE gMark. ALL have been duped. Christians, Fundamentalists, and HJers ALL BELIEVE the Jesus story even with ALL the OUT-OF-THE-ASS stories and do so without corroboration. HJers exhibit the Blindest of Blindest Faith--Faith without Trust--Faith in admitted unreliable sources.

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