JCS

So some screwup from the past gets to be the representative for all you Christians? What kind of screwed up system is that? Your god must be either sadistic or utterly incompetent, since his creation was either inept or designed to fail on purpose. I guess that is why the claim, Christianity cuts you then sells you the Band-Aid sounds so reasonable. :banghead:

Rev. Timothy G. Muse

Your question is a good one. The passage answers your question in several verses that follow. (Rom 5:18) "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men..." (Rom 5:19) "For just as through the disobedience of the ONE MAN (Adam) the MANY WERE MADE SINNERS, so also through the obedience of the one man the MANY (those found in Christ) will be made righteous." This is also confirmed in 1 Cor 15:22 which says "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." The point being that in the same way it is through the obedience of Christ that those in Christ are made alive; it is through the disobedience of Adam that all men became sinners and experience death.

Mageth

This covers both this reply and the reply above to my previous post.

In this system you describe, ALL are made sinners by Adam's sin. His one act was sufficient to condemn all.

However, Christ's one act does NOT make all righteous. There's a caveat - you have to be "found in Christ".

That's the question I'm asking. Why this imbalance in God's system of "justice"? Why does Adam's sin condemn all, but Christ's obedience not save all?

jbernier

But why does that clearly necessitate that Adam was a "Federal Head" who sinned on our behalf? Your argument essentially says that all humans bit the fruit when Adam did. But is that what Paul is saying? Or is he saying that the disobedience of Adam constitutes a pattern in which humans live out their lives? Conversely, the obedience of Christ constitutes a pattern in which human can can live out their lives, as an alternative to the pattern constituted in Adam? I think that is the real thrust of this passage, not some putative original sin that somehow is transmitted from Adam to all his descendants.

I think also that Karl Barth makes a good argument for saying that, for Paul, Adam constituted the unredeemed subject whereas Christ constituted the potentiality of the redeemed subject. To be "in Adam" means to be in our old, unredeemed human state; to be "in Christ" means to be in a new, redeemed human state. "Original sin" thus becomes something other than an esoteric doctrine but a very down-to-earth recognition of human selfishness and redemption equally becomes the profound possibility of a humanity which is capable of transcending that selfishness.

jbernier

I think that my above reading can help make this problem more comprehensible. If, as I suggest, Paul is wrestling with the very human realities of selfishness and egocentricity on one hand and his own experiences of transcending these failings then it starts to make perfect sense. Look around you. Pretty much everyone instinctually looks out for their own best interests at the expense of others'. It is not easy to put others' needs on the same level as one's own but that is precisely what the cross suggests we are to do. I think that Paul is trying to come to terms with what he considers the essentials of an authentic human life - the radical openness to the needs and struggles of others - and the fact that few people really live up to his ideals. I think that he cannot say that all are redeemed in Christ because it would not be honest. People still kill, steal, lie, etc. Any existentialist will tell you this; yeah, there may be the possibility for self-actualization and all that jazz but not all will experience this as many will be so hopelessly marred in their own petty concerns.

Jack the Bodiless

To answer the original question:

Because YHWH was invented by the Hebrews, and claimed as their tribal totem deity. He was not originally "the" God, but one of many. This is clear from many Biblical passages, though somewhat obscured by the translation of various deity-names as "God" (such as the one where El the All-Highest divides humanity into tribes and gives the Hebrews to YHWH as his share).

The rest is merely the extension of primitive tribalism into modern times. The Bible contains many examples of entire tribes (including innocents) being punished for transgressions of certain members of the tribe (often long dead), just as children within a family can be punished for the crimes of their parents.

It is, of course, unjust.

(...and no, we're not "judging God": we are judging the primitives who invented him, and those who still choose to worship this concept).

jbernier

There is no evidence of any sort of totemic practices among the ancient Hebrews. Not to mention that "totemism" fell out of anthropological usage (and it was anthropologists who pioneered the term as a category of social analysis) several decades ago. It really does not work as a cross-cultural category, imho, being too much rooted in the particular context in which it was first observed (among the Ojibwe/Chippewa peoples). Interestingly, though, it has been "rediscovered" by some recent anthropologists in what some call "techno-totemism", in which particular types of science or technology metonymously stand for the whole group which is associated with it.

"Primitive tribalism." What a progressive, enlightened, attitude. Wow, puts this primitive tribalist to shame, let me tell ya.

Jack the Bodiless

I'm not aware of exactly how modern anthropologists use the word. I'm using it in the sense that they had a tribal deity that was specifically "theirs" (for a while, they even had a tribal talisman, the Ark of the Covenant).
The religion has, of course, changed a lot over the centuries. But this thread is about the origins of the notion of a "chosen people". If you feel you've "moved on" from such notions: maybe you should be a Unitarian, if you're not already?

Rev. Timothy G. Muse

In the past, I've labored over this same question. Here's what I've found... perhaps it will help you as well.

While there is a numerical imbalance between the former (sinful humanity in Adam) and the latter (those found and saved through Christ); the accomplishment of the latter is still much greater than the former. We see this beginning in v. 15ff "But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the MANY died byt he trespass of the ONE man (Adam), HOW MUCH M0RE did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many (those found/saved in Christ)! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought CONDEMNATION, BUT the gift followed many trespasses and brought JUSTIFICATION. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, HOW MUCH MORE will those who receive God's ABUNDANT provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. ... The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, GRACE INCREASED ALL THE MORE, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord."

2. This still leaves the question of the numerical difference. The Scripture approaches this subject in Rom 9, where Paul writes "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath - prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory - even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" The point being... though Scripture doesn't emphasize the wrath of God, God has the right in dealing with sinners who all deserve the wrath and curse of God TO DISPLAY HIS GRACE by saving some, while pouring out his wrath on others TO DISPLAY HIS JUSTICE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS (Note - both groups originally being "sinners who deserve God's wrath and curse).

The good news is that God offers his grace TO ALL who will embrace his Son by repenting not only from their sins, but from their whole way of life (world view, ways, etc.)

Jack the Bodiless

...Which is, of course, unjust.

There's no way around that.