Magdlyn

More caves:

http://www.abcgallery.com/D/duccio/duccio14.html

http://www.abcgallery.com/B/botticel...ticelli45.html

http://www.abcgallery.com/G/giotto/giotto112.html

Alternately, a proper homebirth with midwives (must have been reading Matthew):

http://www.abcgallery.com/G/giotto/giotto112.html

Magdlyn

Leaving out the Protoevanglion of James, of course. The cave-shepherd stuff?

If both cults were created in the 1st century CE, I guess they both just sprang from the same fertile, er, rocky soil. They are brothers, not father and son. And they are mutts, or Frankenstein Monsters. One Roman/Persian, one Jewish/Greek, both stemming ultimately in a long beautiful tradition from the Blessed Osiris/Isis tradition of Egypt.

ichabod crane

In fact, Matthew records Jesus' birth only with a few brief words in 1:25. It says nothing about where he was born. Can you please cite me the verse where it says he was born in his home? You're correct about the Magi visiting when he was around two.

Luke is the only canonical work which records where Jesus was born. Luke 2:7 says "And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in bands of cloth, and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn". The Greek word phatne means a stable or feeding trough. It doesn't mean a cave. And the kind of animals keep in stables were not kept in caves in the ancient near East, and cannot be kept there because the conditions are too damp and they get diseases. It is also obvious that the stable in question was connected to the inn - it says "the inn" (a specific inn), not "an inn".

Yes, there is a tradition, and we know that it originated from the Protoevangelium of James, as I said. The later writers you mention got the idea from that source. The issue then becomes the relative credibility in historical terms of the Protoevangelium.

CX

This again conflates the Cult of Deus Sol Invictus and the Roman Cult of Mithras. We do not know what, if any, special accoutrements adherents to the Mithras cult wore. Secondly the highest level of spiritual understanding in the Roman Cult of Mithraism was Pater or father. This is a pretty generic term. You may be thinking of Pontifex Maximus the head of the Roman state cult. At the time of Constantine I the state cult was the Cult of Deus Sol Invictus. Since the Roman Empire established Xianity as a state religion (Not under Constantine I by the way as is commonly, but erroneously held) it is not surprising that clerical titles would hold over from the previous religion of the empire. This hardly demonstrates influence of any import. And in any event none of it relates to Mithraism which was never the state cult.

CX

Ulansey is a bit unreliable. I'd read Clauss first. As to the cave, Mithras wasn't apparently born in the cave. He sprang fully formed (and fully mature) from a rock or pile of rocks. Later he brings the sacred bull to a cave to imprison it. It gets out which is when Sol tells him to kill it. The significance of the cave is not well understood. In point of fact none of the symbology of the Roman Cult of Mithras is very well understood because of a lack of decent evidence. Ultimately what is interesting about Mithraism vis-a-vis Xianity is not some correspondence between the to in the form of direct borrowing or influence (which clearly does not exist) but rather the invention of a new religion, it's development, increase in influence, competition and ultimate demise or victory. Mithraism provides the "what-if" to Xianity's ultimate success which was as much a product of historical accident and luck as it was brilliant theological maneuvering on the part of Paul and his followers.

CX

Nope. That again is mostly misinformation. There is nothing to indicate Mithras was born in a cave. Mithras is depicted being born from a rock or group of rocks thought to represent the cosmos. In some depictions he is attended by two "torch-bearers" whose purpose is unclear, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest they are shepherds. The cave imagery is related to his slaying of the sacred bull.

They are more like third cousins or close neighbors. The obviously had the same cultural and environmental influences, but that is about it. I'd be interested to see any connection you can make between the Roman Cult of Mithras and the Osiris/Isis mythos.

Magdlyn

You are right. No mention in Matt of birthplace (except for town), either house, inn, stable or cave! How strange. Good thing Luke and James cleared that one up for us!

Later, the Magi visit J and M at his home. Only mention of any kind of dwelling. Whole lotta crazy stuff about stars, and non-existent censi, singing virgins, leaping fetuses, oracles in the Temple, outrageously expensive gifts from unknown Persian astrologers, and midwives checking post partum vulvi for maidenheads (receiving shriveled hands for their troubles) tho. Ie: myth.

Born in Bethlehem. Raised in Bethlehem, in Judaea, er, Nazereth in Israel? No one knows.

No, I understand katalemna means temporary shelter or cave, oft translated as "inn."

http://www.biblehistory.com/176.htm

http://www.bibleplaces.com/bethlehem.htm

see also here:

http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/AT...J1203-QS-6.pdf

One of the pix I linked to, the Botticelli, shows a stable built out from a cave. The cave, as symbol for world womb, will not go away because one canonical gospel which presumes to tell the mythological birth story, does not specifiy it. If people want it to be a cave, it will be a cave.


Well, as you know, I care squat for the historicity of either GLuke or Pr of James. Both are Xtian myths, both are valid as such. Neither are history.

ichabod crane

It's kataluma, and the UBS Greek New Testament dictionary gives as a definition "room, guest room, inn". Can you give me a reference for your definition?

CX

NA27 has KATALUMATI and inflected form of KATALUMA as you rightly point out. The LSJ defines KATALUMA as "lodging" or "billet for troops". the "Middle Liddell" gives "inn" in addition to "lodging". The word is used precisely twice in all of the NT. in GLk 2:7 as was already mentioned and in GMk 14:14. The GMk reference makes it pretty clear that KATALUMA in KOINE means some kind of guest lodging. In any event there is no possible way to construe it as either a temporary dwelling or a cave. And anyway the entire cave thing is a red herring as it has already been explained that Mithras was not born in a cave to begin with.

Toto

I found the discussion of Mithraic parallels in Drews' The Legend of Saint Peter interesting, although the book may be dated. (You can order the book here for a lot less than from Amazon.)

Drews sees St. Peter as the Christian analogue to a Mithraic figure that derives from fire gods and sun gods. (He is more concerned with common mythic elements in a number of religions than with showing specific analogues between Mithraism and Christianity.) The ancients thought that rocks had souls because they issued a spark when hit; rocks also fell from the heaven. There are many examples of sacred rocks in Judaism, and Jesus is called a spiritual rock by Paul in 1 Cor 10:4. There is also a lot of well known cornerstone imagery in Christianity.

Drews says: