Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 02-14-2007, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

You don't know when paleography was invented, do you?

How is my knowledge of the date of the invention of the
discipline of paleography relevant to my claim that there
would have been at least a small group of people in the
antiquity (0-300 CE) who had the ability

* to recognised the handwriting of known handwriters,
* to mimic that hand,
* to detect a forgery of that hand by another.

mountainman · 02-14-2007, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

No, you'll just claim that Eusebius et al. not only decided to imitate old handwriting prior to the invention of paleography but the cabal also decided to use old papyri prior to the invention of carbon dating.

I have yet to determine the "shelf-life" for papyrus. That is, the
time between harvesting (which I believe is the C14 date), while
it sits on a shelf, and until (the latest) it can be used.

Earlier you stated

Quote:

some of this literature ... written on the backs of letters, contracts, and other mundane documents involving everyday second and third century affairs in and around Oxyrhynchus

Can you provide a sample reference? Which fragment or MS, of the
NT, is written on such an Oxyryhnchus 'mundane document'?

spin · 02-14-2007, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The original results were published 280 CE +/- 60 years.
The article notes:

Minute samples of papyrus and leather were tested at the University of Arizona's world-renowned radiocarbon dating Accelerator Mass Spectrometry laboratory in January 2005. The results showed the likely date of the codex to be between A.D. 220 and A.D. 340.

Super-editor Eusebius had an obliging boss with stacks of moolah.
Quantum physics would have been a problem, but forgery and
Coptic writing scribal-technology was old hat, and no problem.

Typical. Didn't read the following paragraph. C14 was only one of the dating techniques, as I said. Here we have you taking the hopeful ploy that it must have been the last quarter of the date range. Well, you may as well look at the ink analysis and change your mind.

Ink analysis by McCrone Associates Inc., in Westmont, Ill., confirmed the presence of carbon black as one component of the ink samples examined, and gum as a binding medium — consistent with inks from the third and fourth centuries. It was further established that the ink contained an iron component consistent in many ways with other metal-based inks of third-century Egypt.

Of course, you can try to claim that it was written in Constantinople despite it being in Coptic.

spin

S.C.Carlson · 02-14-2007, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Can you provide a sample reference? Which fragment or MS, of the NT, is written on such an Oxyryhnchus 'mundane document'?

P28 for one. See also P12 from a different town in Egypt.

Stephen

mountainman · 02-15-2007, 08:24 PM

Are you aware of web based resources that discuss
this aspect (ie: the use of recycled documents)
of the fragments P28 and/or P12? Searches todate
have not been fruitful.

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02-15-2007, 08:24 PM	#25
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Are you aware of web based resources that discuss this aspect (ie: the use of recycled documents) of the fragments P28 and/or P12? Searches todate have not been fruitful.

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