Juststeve

Setting aside for a moment what you think the purpose of each Gospel writer was, do you contend that either Matthew's or Luke's genealogy is factually accurate? Can you from the genealogies tell me, for example, what the name of Jesus' grandfather of Joseph's side was?

Steve

Little Dot

Since all genealogy records were preserved in the Temple and the Temple was destroyed in 70A.D. by Titus, it would be an impossibility to know that now.

stephan huller

Yet another difficulty with your formulation which is brought up by Eusebius:

The point of course is that this points to the fact that these gospel was originally arranged from material developed by groups of people who didn't believe in the immaculate conception (i.e. 'heretics' by the standards of later Church Fathers). There is no other way around it and those heresies (i.e. who say that Jesus was born through a natural conception of Joseph's seed penetrating Mary's egg) were numerous.

Juststeve

Dot:

It is not impossible to know that Matthew and Luke give a different name for Jesus' paternal grandfather. Is one of them mistaken?

Steve

Little Dot

Please give me the names you mean.

Kapyong

Gday,

Actually - this imaginary "oral tradition" failed dismally :


The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the Lord's Prayer - supposedly directly taught by Jesus to the disciples. But we have DIFFERENT versions of the Lord's Prayer - the Gospels have differing versions, the Diakhe has another, and the MSS have more different versions again. The Lord's Prayer is one of the most VARIANT items in the MSS - yet supposedly this came directly from Jesus to the disciples. This shows clearly that the alleged 'oral tradition' totally failed to record Jesus alleged words.


The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the names of the apostles - we have various DIFFERENT lists.

The oral tradition totally FAILED to record correctly who Cephas and Peter were - early Christians thought Cephas and Peter were different people, but later there were considered the SAME person.

The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the (alleged) words of God himself at the baptism - early Christians quote 'this is my son, this day have I begotten thee', but later it becomes 'this is my son, in thee I am well pleased'.

The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the alleged last words of Jesus on the cross - we have DIFFERENT versions in the Gospels.

The oral tradition totally FAILED to record the genealogy of Jesus - we have DIFFERENT versions in the Gospels.


On this evidence, oral tradition conspicuously failed.


K.

Little Dot

Spin, I will some time to read through all that you have posted.

Tristan Scott

Is that a trick question? I mean, Jesus wasn't really related to Joseph was he?

Little Dot

I can't believe that Eusebius was so ignorant about this.

The marriage of Mary and Joseph made Jesus the adopted son and "legal heir" of Joseph, that's where Eusebius' confusion comes in.

gupwalla

Oh, you have to be kidding. None of the names in either genealogy match up past David and before Joseph (the purported father of Jesus).

Heli and Jacob. Those are your two names. One of them might be Joseph's father's name, or neither of them might be Joseph's father's name. But in either case, at least one of the genealogies is wrong on its face.

(The standard apologetic line is that Luke's genealogy is that of Mary. But the text doesn't say that -- you have to assume the genealogy is literally true and then invent some assumptions to make it all work out. Carts and horses, and all that.)