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Old 12-01-2007, 09:28 AM   #121
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The fact is complex ideas, by definition, are greatly simplified in popular works.
As I indicated earlier, this is irrelevant: its not about simplifying ideas - its about presenting false and inane ideas.
Consider the crucifixion scene with the Roman soldiers (Mark 15:24), which is borrowed from Psalm 22:18 (“They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”) - Sanders would have us believe that the soldiers were engaged in symbolic acts. Isnt this just plain stupid?
You think it is possible that the Roman soldiers who pierced Jesus’ feet and hands and cast lots for his clothing were also acting out Psalm passages?

When Doherty gets something wrong, his fallibility is ignored and his credentials, honesty and competence are relentlessly attacked. It just seems like a double standard to me.
Where did I EVER attack his credentials? You're burning straw men, Ted. I've sincerely apologized publicly multiple times for attacking his honesty.

And do I need to re-iterate the point about human fallibility? Can you provide a citation for Sanders' comments on the crucifixion? I'd be curious to re-read that part. Jeffrey, I'm wondering if it's something in Jesus and Judaism (or via: amazon.co.uk) instead of THFoJ.
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Old 12-01-2007, 09:49 AM   #122
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As I indicated earlier, this is irrelevant: its not about simplifying ideas - its about presenting false and inane ideas.
Consider the crucifixion scene with the Roman soldiers (Mark 15:24), which is borrowed from Psalm 22:18 (“They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”) - Sanders would have us believe that the soldiers were engaged in symbolic acts. Isnt this just plain stupid?
You think it is possible that the Roman soldiers who pierced Jesus’ feet and hands and cast lots for his clothing were also acting out Psalm passages?

When Doherty gets something wrong, his fallibility is ignored and his credentials, honesty and competence are relentlessly attacked. It just seems like a double standard to me.
Where did I EVER attack his credentials? You're burning straw men, Ted. I've sincerely apologized publicly multiple times for attacking his honesty.

And do I need to re-iterate the point about human fallibility? Can you provide a citation for Sanders' comments on the crucifixion? I'd be curious to re-read that part. Jeffrey, I'm wondering if it's something in Jesus and Judaism instead of THFoJ.
Doesn't seem to be -- though I only did a quick skim of the book.

So, Ted/Jacob .. where in Sanders is your claim about what Sanders' "would have us believe" to be found?

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Old 12-01-2007, 12:49 PM   #123
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Please avoid charges of misrepresentation. As noted, we are all fallible and can make mistakes.

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Old 12-02-2007, 08:23 AM   #124
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So, Ted/Jacob .. where in Sanders is your claim about what Sanders' "would have us believe" to be found?
Sanders treats the NT passages that are derived from the OT and involve Jesus as symbolic acts even when they involve people other than Jesus. This is his general methodology. For example, Mark 11:1-11 narrates that Jesus entered Jerusalem on the back of a donkey with crowds welcoming him shouting ‘Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’ Sanders argues that Jesus’ ride into Jerusalem was a symbolic action meant to fulfill the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9 which talked of triumphal entry on the back of a donkey - this is despite a crowd chanting an OT passage (Psalm 118:26). He says that he is inclined “to the view that it is Jesus himself who read the prophecy and decided to fulfill it.” And surmises the triumphal entry as a symbolic action for insiders “who had eyes to see” p.254. This is nonsense of course and I have provided several reasons against the historicity of the triumphal entry into Jerusalem in my review.

Sanders handles the temple ruckus incident and crucifixion in the same fashion and regards them as historical and without a disclaimer indicating when to depart from his methodology, readers have no reason to think that Sanders regards the casting of lots any differently.

Lets look at the crucifixion scene. Sanders regards the crucifixion scene as historical yet the act of piercing hands and feet is mentioned in Psalm 22:16. Jesus' speech, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me” (Mark 15:34) is derived from Psalm 22:1 and Mark 15:24, the casting lots for the clothes of Jesus by Roman soldiers is derived from Psalm 22:18 (“They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”)

Thus I maintain that he would have us believe that the Roman soldiers were engaged in symbolic acts. This is the logical conclusion barring which Sanders would have to admit that the crucifixion scene is fictionalized.
Something we all know would never do.
Jeffrey is free to apply Sander's methodology in a pick-and-choose fashion if he wants. But Sanders never advises that approach in his book.
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Old 12-02-2007, 10:17 AM   #125
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So, Ted/Jacob .. where in Sanders is your claim about what Sanders' "would have us believe" to be found?
Sanders treats the NT passages that are derived from the OT and involve Jesus as symbolic acts even when they involve people other than Jesus.
He does?

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This is his general methodology. For example, Mark 11:1-11 narrates that Jesus entered Jerusalem on the back of a donkey with crowds welcoming him shouting ‘Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’ Sanders argues that Jesus’ ride into Jerusalem was a symbolic action meant to fulfill the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9 which talked of triumphal entry on the back of a donkey - this is despite a crowd chanting an OT passage (Psalm 118:26). He says that he is inclined “to the view that it is Jesus himself who read the prophecy and decided to fulfill it.” And surmises the triumphal entry as a symbolic action for insiders “who had eyes to see” p.254. This is nonsense of course .

Why is it nonsense, especially in the light of the data about a "prophetic vocabulary" within which Sanders' claims about the symbolic nature of the "triumphal entry" appears?

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Jesus' Actions

What was the meaning of Jesus' actions? [i.e., (1) his entering Jerusalem on a donkey; people welcomed him by shouting, 'Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming (Mark 11:9f.). According to Matthew and Luke, they explicitly called him 'son of David' or 'king' (Matt. 2 i.g; Luke 19.3 8). (2) His going to the Temple, where he turned over the tables of money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons (Mark ii.iS-ig & parn). (3) His sharing a last supper with his disciples, saying that he would not drink wine again 'until that day when 1 drink it new in the kingdom of God' (Mark 14.22-5 & parr)].They were probably all symbolic. Symbolic actions were part of a prophet's vocabulary. They simultaneously drew attention and conveyed information. Some examples from the Hebrew Bible: Isaiah walked 'naked and barefoot for three years as a sign and a portent against Egypt and Ethiopia'. (Isa. 20-3); God commanded Jeremiah to break a pot and proclaim that the Temple would be destroyed (jer. 19-1-13); Jeremiah also wore a yoke to indicate that Judah should submit to Babylon (chs. 27-8). Ezekiel performed much more complicated actions, which required a good deal of explanation, such as lying for long periods of time first on one side and then on the other (Ezek. chs. 4-5; 12. 1-16; 24-15-24). All of these signs would be difficult to understand without verbal interpretation. Wearing a yoke symbolizes submission, but to whom? Breaking a pot symbolizes destruction, but of what? Going naked and barefoot is certainly striking, and everyone would know that the prophet was protesting against something, but they would have to ask him what it was to be sure.

Jesus also used symbolic actions, as we have already seen: his use of the number twelve when speaking of his disciples almost certainly conveyed his intention to call all Israel, which had at one time been divided into twelve tribes; Jesus and possibly others saw his miracles, especially the exorcisms, as symbolizing the conquest of evil and the near arrival of the kingdom of God.
These three actions in Jerusalem are equally symbolic, though in some cases the symbolism is hard to read.
And then he goes on to say:

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The first of these three acts is straightforward: Jesus rode into Jerusalem on an ass, thus fulfilling a prophecy in Zechariah, which is cited by Matthew, but which would have been apparent to many:

Rejoice greatly, 0 daughter of Zion!

Shout aloud, 0 daughter ofjerusalem! Lo, your king comes to you;

triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on a donkey,

on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Zech. 9.9)

It is possible to think either that the prophecy created the event or that the prophecy created the story and that the event never occurred. This is one of a sizeable number of cases in which we cannot be absolutely sure whether Jesus himself acted out a prophecy, or the Christian tradition depicted him as doing so. I incline to the view that it was Jesus himself who read the prophecy and decided to fulfil it: that here he implicitly declared himself to be 'king'. His followers understood and agreed: they hailed the coming kingdom (Mark ii.io) or even Jesus himself as king (Matt. 21.9; Luke 19-38).

Matthew and Luke refer to 'crowds' or 'the multitude', while Mark says that 'many' participated in hailing Jesus. If there was actually a large crowd, however, we must explain how it is that Jesus lived for another week. A public demonstration, accompanied by shouts of 'king' or even 'kingdom', would have been highly inflammatory. Passover was a prime time for trouble-makers to incite the crowd, and both the high priest and the Roman prefect were alert to the danger. I can only suggest thatJesus' demonstration was quite modest: he performed a symbolic gesture for insiders, for those who had eyes to see.

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Sanders handles the temple ruckus incident and crucifixion in the same fashion and regards them as historical and without a disclaimer
He does?

Here's what he says about the "temple ruckus":

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The second action is more difficult to interpret. Jesus turned over 'the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons' (Mark i i. i s & parn). He commented,---Myhouse shall he called a house of prayer-, but you have made it "a den of robbers(Mark I 1. 17 & parn). This statement brings together phrases from Isaiah ('house of prayer', Isa. 56-7) and Jeremiah ('den of robbers, Jer- 7.11) - Jesus also made, however, a second and possibly a third statement about the Temple. The authors of the synoptics attribute to him a prediction that the Temple would be destroyed (Mark 13. If & parr.), and they attribute to his accusers at his trial the testimony that he threatened to destroy the Temple (Mark 14-58 // Matt. 26.61). The threat comes up again, during the crucifixion scene; as he hung on the cross, onlookers taunted him: 'Aha! You who would destroy the Temple . . . , save yourself, and come down from the Cross!' (Mark i5.29f. // Matt. 27-40). Later Stephen, an early Christian, was accused of saying that 'Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place', that is, the Temple (Acts 6-14). These various statements make it difficult to say just what it was that Jesus' action in the Temple symbolized. Was it cleansing or destruction? If destruction, was it a prediction or a threat?

There is no way of eliminating any of these possibilities. It is conceivable that Jesus thought that the trade in the Temple area was dishonest and that he foresaw that his nation would one day revolt against Rome, which would lead to the destruction of the Temple; moral reform and foresight are both possible. We shall consider first reform, which is the implication of the quotation from Jeremiah 7.11: the Temple is a 'den of robbers'. There is no hint in other sources that the sacred money was being misappropriated by being used for purposes other than support of the Temple and its sacrifices;13 but because of the general principle that reform and improvement are always possible, we may grant in advance that Jesus could have sought to amend 'the system'. What is lacking is any other indication that he wanted to reform the large and complex Temple system. Support of the Temple and its ministers was a major aspect of Jewish life: Temple tax, agricultural tithes, minor agricultural offerings ('first fruits'), redemption of first-born sons and animals, sin and guilt offerings, festivals, offerings of animals to provide food for banquets and festivities - Ternple worship, in one way or another, affected every area of life. Had Jesus thought that the entire system was corrupt, that the priests were criminals, that sacrifices were wrong and should be done away with - or anything of the sort - we should have more material pointing in that direction. The Temple was central to Palestinian Judaism and important to all Jews everywhere. To be against it would be to oppose Judaism as a religion. It would also be an attack on the main unifying symbol of the Jewish people. If Jesus really assailed this central institution, we would have some evidence of this apart from the incident of the money-changers' tables. Moreover, we would learn ofjesus' opposition not only from the gospels, but also from Acts and the letters of Paul. In the gospels there are 'woes' against Galilean villages, though not against the Temple. Jesus seems to criticize rich landowners in parables, but ' not the aristocratic priests. He upheld the principal purity law that is mentioned in the gospels (leprosy, discussed above). He paid the Temple tax, even if he was a little reluctant to do so (Matt. 17.24-7). The few passages in the synoptics that deal with the Temple and priestly prerogatives are favourable, and no material represents him as a reformer of cult and taxes except, possibly, this passage. If this was a singular flash of anger, it tells us little about him and his mission.
And:

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I conclude that Jesus' symbolic action of overthrowing tables in the Temple was understood in connection with a saying about destruction, and that the action and the saying, in the view of the authorities, constituted a prophetic threat. Moreover, I think it highly probable thatJesus himself intended the action to predict the destruction of the Temple, rather than to symbolize its need of purification. It is impossible, however, to prove that the statement about a 'den of robbers' was not actually said by Jesus, or that what he said was 'I will destroy the Temple.' I must confess that I doubt the authenticity of the 'den of robbers' statement. It looks to me like an easy phrase for the evangelists to lift from Jeremiah to make Jesus appear politically innocuous to Greek-speaking Gentile readers.
And here (as I've already noted) is what he says about the crucifixion scene:


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The accounts ofJ esus' crucifixion are full of quotations from, and allusions to, Psalm 2.2: 'they divided his clothes, casting lots for them' (Mark 1.24) is a quotation from Psalms 22.18; 'wagging their heads' (Mark 15.29) is from Psalms 22-7; Jesus' cry, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me' (Mark 15-34) is from Psalms 22. 1. As usual in these circumstances, we do not know which elements really took place. My guess is that Jesus' cry was his own reminiscence of the psalm, not just a motif inserted by the early Christians. It is possible that, when Jesus drank his last cup of wine and predicted that he would drink it again in the kingdom, he thought that the kingdom would arrive immediately. After he had been on the cross for a few hours, he despaired, and cried out that he had been forsaken. This speculation is only one possible explanation. We do not know what he thought as he hung in agony on the cross. After a relatively short period of suffering he died, and some of his followers and sympathizers hastily buried him.
So it seems to me not only that your description of his "general methodology" is not accurate, but that Sanders handles neither the Temple incident or the crucifixion scene in the way you say he does. What's more, he gives plenty of notice that he does not do so. And he certainly does give disclaimers about what he regards as historical and not historical within these events.

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readers have no reason to think that Sanders regards the casting of lots any differently.
Except that he doesn't mention or give any indication that he thinks that the casting of lots was an action that anyone actually undertook. In fact he states clearly that "we do not know" if the casting of lots took place" and he seems to regard that its correspondence with Ps. 22:16 makes it historically dubious.

Quote:
Lets look at the crucifixion scene. Sanders regards the crucifixion scene as historical yet the act of piercing hands and feet is mentioned in Psalm 22:16. Jesus' speech, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me” (Mark 15:34) is derived from Psalm 22:1 and Mark 15:24, the casting lots for the clothes of Jesus by Roman soldiers is derived from Psalm 22:18 (“They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”)
Note again that Sanders not only regards these things as historically dubious and/or unconfirmable; he disregards them does in his reconstruction of what happend.

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Thus I maintain that he would have us believe that the Roman soldiers were engaged in symbolic acts.
You've equivocated the meaning Sander's gives to "symbolic actions". And I once again point out that Sanders does not speak of soldiers, let alone that the piecing of the feet of Jesus as a symbolic act of any kind. Nor does he given any indication that he thinks that the piercing of Jesus' feet is a "symbolic action" of the sort that he speaks of Jesus engaging in, i.e. something that is consciously undertaken by one who knows the "scripture" that one is consciously enacting or appealing to in order to make a point.

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This is the logical conclusion barring which Sanders would have to admit that the crucifixion scene is fictionalized.
Only if your premises are sound. And even then all he would have to admit is that certain elements in the depiction of the scene are fictionalized.

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Something we all know would never do.
Except that he does!

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Old 12-02-2007, 10:18 AM   #126
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As Peter Kirby and others noted, your criticism against Sanders was directed at his popular book, not his scholarly book. It's like critiquing evolution through the God Delusion and not scientific articles. Catch up if you want to play.
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Did you actually READ Peter's post? Sanders' credentials were never in question. Solitary is dead on with the Dawkins analogy.
Though your conversation has moved past this issue, I just want to point out how far off this analogy with Dawkins is. The God Delusion is not even about evolution so critiquing evolution based on it would be just plain silly. While the discussion here is admittedly not about science, you did bring it up. Who need to "catch up?"

In point of fact, Dawkins has written books about evolution for popular audiences such as The Selfish Gene, as have many evolutionary scientists (Miller, Mayr, Futuyma, Prothero to name a few I like). To critique evolution based on these books would be absolutely fair because the authors are representing their (and their colleagues) facts, theories and arguments which originated in scholarly publications and they are popularizing them. If the popular books are in a significant way different from the articles, then they misrepresent the very science they are popularizing.

Maybe its different in biblical studies but it seems to me Sanders, or any scholar, can be criticized for their "popular" books.

Ted Hoffman is absolutely right in criticizing arguments based on that or any other book.

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As if everything in Dawkins' popular works are a matter of consensus within his field. This still cuts both ways, regardless of your hyperbole.
Who cares if it is consensus? It only matters if it is well reasoned. No field of knowledge progresses by the elimination of non-consensus ideas.
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The fact is complex ideas, by definition, are greatly simplified in popular works.
Which is why the reasoning better hold up. The audience is, by definition, not familiar with the same assumptions held by the author or the "consensus."
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Think about the Jesus Seminar's Five Gospels: they don't justify their use of a non-miraculous paradigm. Evangelicals and religious conservatives call this begging the question. Anyone familiar with the field realizes that there has been a lot written on this and that there is no need to re-invent the wheel (argue conclusively for Markan priority, a Humean approach to miracles, etc.), but only to show the paradigm within which mainstream scholars are working. This often comes off as sloppy reasoning to people with alternate worldviews.
Perhaps. But if the authors reasoning looks sloppy to someone with an alternate worldview the author has made some assumptions that need to be justified. This is even more important while popularizing scholarship than it is within the academy because the assumptions can't be taken for granted.
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Now when we encounter specious reasoning in his "serious works" we will be expected to overlook all his PhDs, degrees, Greek, Hebrew and all his badges and chalk it up to fallibility?
This is how it works?
... are you serious? There are very few points in that book which are matters of consensus (especially after the non-eschatological Jesus explosion that occurred only a few years later). "Fallibility?" It's called "being human." Anyone who is deluded enough to think that humans currently have the final answers on any major issues (religious, biological, metaphysical, etc.) needs to step into the real world. Just because that point of culmination hasn't been met in terms of ONE scholar's historical inquiry to the founder of Christianity doesn't mean that the whole field is messed up.
The point of scholarship is to work toward those answers you mention. Why else study something?

I think the point some have made is that it is not one scholar who has failed to reach the "point of culmination" of knowledge. It is that so many in this field who are regarded as the best, still show flawed reasoning.

I'm not one who thinks the whole field needs to be abandoned but from the outside it sure looks like a lot of weakly supported speculation gets treated as "gospel" for some reason.
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Old 12-02-2007, 01:05 PM   #127
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Joe Banks - check out popular books on any historical field, and more often than not, they don't contain the full kit and kaboodle as to how they get their conclusions, what the specific evidence is, etc... Furthermore, Sanders has been, in my opinion, defeated by Neusner.
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Old 12-03-2007, 05:08 AM   #128
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Joe Banks - check out popular books on any historical field, and more often than not, they don't contain the full kit and kaboodle as to how they get their conclusions, what the specific evidence is, etc... Furthermore, Sanders has been, in my opinion, defeated by Neusner.
True, but reputable ones also don't say things like, "It is best to maintain that George Washington really did cut down a cherry tree and then admit to it because he couldn't lie, in spite of the fact that we know the first source of this story isn't reputable and that it has all the hallmarks of fabrication."
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Old 12-03-2007, 09:18 AM   #129
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Joe Banks - check out popular books on any historical field, and more often than not, they don't contain the full kit and kaboodle as to how they get their conclusions, what the specific evidence is, etc... Furthermore, Sanders has been, in my opinion, defeated by Neusner.
True, but reputable ones also don't say things like, "It is best to maintain that George Washington really did cut down a cherry tree and then admit to it because he couldn't lie, in spite of the fact that we know the first source of this story isn't reputable and that it has all the hallmarks of fabrication."
I'm afraid your criteria for "hallmark of fabrication" has no basis in standard historical methodology.
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Old 12-04-2007, 04:11 AM   #130
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True, but reputable ones also don't say things like, "It is best to maintain that George Washington really did cut down a cherry tree and then admit to it because he couldn't lie, in spite of the fact that we know the first source of this story isn't reputable and that it has all the hallmarks of fabrication."
I'm afraid your criteria for "hallmark of fabrication" has no basis in standard historical methodology.
Neither do NT studies!
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