Freethought & Rationalism Archive

comedyoferrors · 03-03-2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

I started thinking about this after one of my co-workers asked me a question. I will reveal this question at the end of the post.

Here is why I may be close to deconversion:

OK, picture this.

We have all seen what the view of Earth is like from a plane? Everyone looks like ants. Now, picture our solar system and universe as a wooden board stretching out widely. Now, imagine BEYOND the universe, (or board if you will), we see God in his realm of existence.

Now, in order for me to stay a Christian, this is what I must believe:

God chose one part of the world in about 900 B.C. to start Genesis.

He developed a closeness with Jewish people for some strange reason. He picks Israel as his "favorite nation" for unknown reasons instead of the whole world.

He writes down prophecies in books not labeled "prophecies of the messiah" but instead "hidden" in people's songs to God or ramblings.

God then wants to save everyone, so he comes to earth in early first century to just one place - Jerusalem and a little surrounding areas. He doesn't see a need to have too much of his childhood written about. His birth is there, then a few little childhood stories and that's it.

Then his existence vanishes on earth from ages 13-29 and then his life picks up again at age 30. What was the all important God doing for these missing 17 years? How could he have been so caring and important?

Then at age 30 he says some vague preaching for 3 years to only a select group of people in a select part of the world, gets crucified in only one part of the world, shows up to just a small group of people, then tells these people "Gotta get out of here see ya! Oh preach the Gospel by the way to all the earth."

He then vanishes, leaving hardly any historians writing about all his miraculous deeds, and there's wars in his name for the past 2,000 years and still no sign of him coming back.

Does this make ANY SENSE to ANYONE?

and yet I have been believing this my whole life!!

I see no reason why God couldn't have come to Earth as man in all the nations, be crucified, and then the story would be known throughout all nations, instead of him picking a random little spot to preach to 12 men and gain a little following and hoping they would spread it.

Ask yourself. if ANY of you guys were God, would this be the way you want to save humanity? 3 years of vague teachings with hardly anything about your life growing up? Why couldn't Jesus have been healing as a 5 year old? That would've made for so many more believers.

Now, wanna know the one question my friend asked me that made me think like this?

he said, "Of course we know that god exists.................in the Bible. The question is, does god exist OUTSIDE of the Bible?"

My eyes were opened when he said this and I immediately started thinking of what the Christian God is ACTUALLY portrayed as.

(NOTE: I put this in this forum because it deals with just reading the Bible to come up with this conclusion.)

I don't know if I am fully deconverted yet, but it seems to me that idea of worshipping such a clumsy god makes no sense anymore.

What do you guys think?

I don't know if anyone's brought this up yet, since I haven't read through yet-- but you should really read THE AGE OF REASON by Thomas Paine. I think it would be something that you would find helpful......

Demigawd · 03-03-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisengland

Remember if you are wrong you go to Hell

Boo!

Did I scare you, Chris? No? Well, we're even because your (repeated) comment isn't scary either.

juergen · 03-03-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisengland

Remember if you are wrong you go to Hell

It got posted the first time.

Solitary Man · 03-03-2008, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisengland

Remember if you are wrong you go to Hell

And if you're wrong about Islam, you likewise go to hell.

Bushman · 03-03-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisengland

Remember if you are wrong you go to Hell

If Christianity really is true, and can be demonstrated as such, you really have to ask why someone would then resort to such childish games? :huh:

These types of 'threats' are used to quell reasoned questioning. They have no place in a sincere and logical search for truth.

comedyoferrors · 03-03-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

I am now more confused than ever. I can not get this thought of "hellfire" out of my head no matter how hard i try and it seems I'm desperately trying to cling to the faith to avoid Hell.

I'm sorry guys but I really am confused beyond belief.

I understand how difficult this is for you, I really do. My biggest fear when I was deconverting two years ago was also Hell. Even now, when I know in my head that the chances of Hell being real are infinitesimal, the fear still comes back every once in a while. It's a very difficult thing to get past. Years of telling someone that they'll go to Hell if they're not Christian really does a number on them psychologically.

The only advice I can offer is try to understand that the fear-- while very real-- is not rational. Try to seperate the rational from the irrational. It is very difficult at first, but gets easier over time.

For me, it became easier to deal with the fear the more often I confronted it. When I got that nagging doubt and sinking feeling that I might be going to hell, I would stop and force myself to think about the idea of hell logically. And the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it made no sense, the less afraid I became of it.

I wish you the best of luck in the process you're going through.......

Johnny Skeptic · 03-03-2008, 05:57 PM

Message to Half-Life: I would like to suggest that you try to find out what the Bible says that God's motives are, and then compare his motives to his methods. If his methods do not complement his motives, he probably does not exist. When assessing the character of any being, his motives are everything.

If a God exists, and wants people to believe that he can predict the future, why would he make 100% disputable prophecies? All Bible prophecies are disputable. I wish to distinguish disputable prophecies from false prophecies. A false prophecy is a prophecy that does not come true. A disputable prophecy does not necessarily have to be a false prophecy. Even if all Bible prophecies are true prophecies, they have failed to convince the majority of the people in the world that they are true prophecies. If Pat Robertson accurately predicted when and where a natural disaster would occur, month, day, and year, that would be far less disputable than any Bible prophecy. In my opinion, no prophecies at all would be much better than 100% disputable prophecies. That is because the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), and yet Bible prophecies have needlessly caused lots of confusion.

One thing is for certain: If a God inspired the Bible, there are not any doubts whatsoever that he would be able to convince more people to love him and to accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will. It would certainly not have been unfair for Jesus to accurately predict what the names of the Roman emperors would be for the next 200 years, and their dates of birth and death, which would surely have caused more people to become Christians. That is a reasonable assumption since historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon much less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that.

Since Jesus made some predictions, Christians cannot get away with claiming that he did not want to use prophecy to try to influence people in future generations.

If God wanted people to have faith, he would not have provided them with so much tangible, firsthand evidence.

No reasonable motives why the God of the Bible does what he does = no God of the Bible.

aChristian · 03-03-2008, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

One thing is for certain: If a God inspired the Bible, there are not any doubts whatsoever that he would be able to convince more people to love him and to accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will.

Jesus taught that even the miracle of someone rising from the dead and warning a man of the consequences of rebelling against God will not convince him to repent of his sins and turn to God if he doesn't want to (Luke 16:31). It is not lack of evidence that keeps us from God (he has made his existence and his love for us clear for all to see), but it is our refusal to admit our guilt before a holy God who loves us that keeps us from him.

Minimalist · 03-03-2008, 08:25 PM

Quote:

but it is our refusal to admit our guilt before a holy God who loves us that keeps us from him.

In my case, it's the refusal to admit that there are any 'holy gods' kicking around in the first place.

Trotting out iron age superstition is really not very convincing.

Solitary Man · 03-03-2008, 09:09 PM

I wonder if anyone else remembers this old gem from the even older Plognark:

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-03-2008, 05:57 PM	#107
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to Half-Life: I would like to suggest that you try to find out what the Bible says that God's motives are, and then compare his motives to his methods. If his methods do not complement his motives, he probably does not exist. When assessing the character of any being, his motives are everything. If a God exists, and wants people to believe that he can predict the future, why would he make 100% disputable prophecies? All Bible prophecies are disputable. I wish to distinguish disputable prophecies from false prophecies. A false prophecy is a prophecy that does not come true. A disputable prophecy does not necessarily have to be a false prophecy. Even if all Bible prophecies are true prophecies, they have failed to convince the majority of the people in the world that they are true prophecies. If Pat Robertson accurately predicted when and where a natural disaster would occur, month, day, and year, that would be far less disputable than any Bible prophecy. In my opinion, no prophecies at all would be much better than 100% disputable prophecies. That is because the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), and yet Bible prophecies have needlessly caused lots of confusion. One thing is for certain: If a God inspired the Bible, there are not any doubts whatsoever that he would be able to convince more people to love him and to accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will. It would certainly not have been unfair for Jesus to accurately predict what the names of the Roman emperors would be for the next 200 years, and their dates of birth and death, which would surely have caused more people to become Christians. That is a reasonable assumption since historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon much less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that. Since Jesus made some predictions, Christians cannot get away with claiming that he did not want to use prophecy to try to influence people in future generations. If God wanted people to have faith, he would not have provided them with so much tangible, firsthand evidence. No reasonable motives why the God of the Bible does what he does = no God of the Bible.

03-03-2008, 09:09 PM	#110
Solitary Man Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: ירושלים Posts: 1,701	I wonder if anyone else remembers this old gem from the even older Plognark:

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.