show_no_mercy

Isaiah 45 LXX
45:1 ουτως λεγει κυριος ο θεος τω χριστω μου κυρω / This the Lord God says to my christ Cyrus

1 Samuel 2 LXX
2:10 [...] και υψωσει κερας χριστου αυτου / [...] and exalt the horn of his christ

1 Samuel 2 LXX
2:35 [...] και διελευσεται ενωπιον χριστου μου πασας τας ημερας / [...] and he will minister before my christ always

1 Samuel 12 LXX
12:3 ιδου εγω αποκριθητε κατ' εμου ενωπιον κυριου και ενωπιον χριστου αυτου / Here I stand. Testify against me in the presence of YHWH and his christ.

2 Samuel 19 LXX
19:22 και απεκριθη αβεσσα υιος σαρουιας και ειπεν μη αντι τουτου ου θανατωθησεται σεμει οτι κατηρασατο τον χριστον κυριου / Then Abishai son of Zeruiah said, "Shouldn't Shimei be put to death for this? He cursed the LORD's christ

1 Chronicles 16 LXX
16:22 μη αψησθε των χριστων μου και εν τοις προφηταις μου μη πονηρευεσθε / Do not touch my christ; do my prophets no harm

2 Chronicles 6 LXX
6:42 κυριε ο θεος μη αποστρεψης το προσωπον του χριστου σου μνησθητι τα ελεη δαυιδ του δουλου σου / O LORD God, do not reject your christ. Remember the great love promised to David your servant

Psalm 2 LXX
2:2 παρεστησαν οι βασιλεις της γης και οι αρχοντες συνηχθησαν επι το αυτο κατα του κυριου και κατα του χριστου αυτου διαψαλμα / The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Christ

Psalm 17 LXX
17:51 μεγαλυνων τας σωτηριας του βασιλεως αυτου και ποιων ελεος τω χριστω αυτου τω δαυιδ και τω σπερματι αυτου εως αιωνος / He gives his king great victories; he shows unfailing kindness to his christ, to David and his descendants forever

Psalm 27 LXX
27:8 κυριος κραταιωμα του λαου αυτου και υπερασπιστης των σωτηριων του χριστου αυτου εστιν / The LORD is the strength of his people, a fortress of salvation for his christ

Lamentations 4 LXX
4:20 πνευμα προσωπου ημων χριστος κυριου συνελημφθη εν ταις διαφθοραις αυτων ου ειπαμεν εν τη σκια αυτου ζησομεθα εν τοις εθνεσιν / The LORD's christ, our very life breath, was caught in their traps. We thought that under his shadow we would live among the nations

These (and many more like it) instances of "christ" are all nouns in the LXX. They're titles. Josephus considers the LXX to have been divinely inspired. The point being, which is totally lost on you for some reason, is that Josephus never uses the phrase anointed one, or the lord's anointed one. Ever. The only time he uses that phrase is when he uses it on the Jesus of Christianity.

Of course, reading Josephus with your Christian glasses on you simply read it as "christ", but it would really be translated as "anointed one". Why does Josephus never use the phrase anointed one? That's the question you need to be answering, not your apologetics about "anointed one" only being used on Jesus during Josephus' lifetime (in which the LXX was still considered divinely inspired and used by Greek speaking Jews).

Chaucer

You need to answer this question. How, if ever, does Josephus make reference to Cyrus or to anyone else who is termed "Christ" in the LXX, and in what terms?

Chaucer

show_no_mercy

This is my entire point, and is actually the question I'm asking you. He never refers to any of these people in the LXX as "the anointed one" or "the lord's anointed" in his rendition of the history of Judaism. Absolutely no one in Josephus' "Antiquities" is given that title - even though, with the Cyrus example, he more than adequately fits the description. But he does use the verb "anoint" multiple times. Never the noun ("anointed one" or "the lord's anointed"). Why does Josephus avoid that title (the anointed one), but yet the only two times he uses that phrase is on the Jesus of Christianity (which is rendered as "christ")?

Chaucer

So how does he refer to them? Can you show me a parallel reference side-by-side to one and the same figure -- Cyrus or whoever -- where we can compare and contrast an LXX characterization with a Josephus one?

Chaucer

show_no_mercy

This is Josephus on Cyrus in Antiquities Book 11
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/t...hus/ant11.html

This is the Hebrew Bible on Cyrus (2 Chron 36, Ezra 1-6, Isaiah 44-45). All of the messainic language is In Isaiah (since he's the only one who's a prophet out of the three):

Isaiah 45:1 refers to Cyrus as YHWH's anointed one. To take this literally is a non-sequitur because Cyrus wasn't consecrated as a Jewish king, and thus wouldn't have had the Jewish ceremony of being anointed with olive oil. It's simply a title meaning divine authority and kingship.

rlogan

Quite a mouthful of nonsequitor. How do I account for miracles being absent from all nonscriptural texts?

This is a rhetorical question. With this implied logic: There are nonscriptural references to Jesus without miracles. Therefore Jesus was real.


That logic does not follow, even if I grant your faulty premise. Which I don't.

Thomas?! Are you kidding? OMG Okay. A new low! The Gospel of Thomas weighed in as evidence for the historical Jesus. I see Toto has already teed off on that one.

Pliny - he investigated and mentioned no founder of Christianity who was crucified. Fits well with early Christianity being allegorical Christ, not "big bang" theory of historical Jesus.

I see others have dealt with them all...


I think I understand now there is a huge difference between "Historical Christianity" and "Historical Jesus".

You have to ignore or misuse the History of Christianity in order to dream up a historical Jesus. It was an allegorical Jesus first. Revealed through vision.

dog-on

...somewhere in modern day Turkey...

Chaucer

Now Isaiah 45:1 versus Antiquities 11 will give me something tangible to look at. Thank you.

Best,

Chaucer

fta

What are some sayings of Jesus that have NO precedent in prior philosophies and creeds?

No Robots

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.--Lk 14:26