rhutchin

As far as I know the calculations are consistent with the assumptions that are made. From what you write, it seems that neither one of us understands how the estimates are developed and can explain the models used to make the estimates.

Two plumbers it seems.

LightCC

Tell this to the evolution and big-bang theory crowds! Please! (I'm glad you agree with me! Heh)

Agreed. Applies to any historical investigation. Any kind of forensics (forensic accounting just as much as forensic crime investigation). Any proof of what happened in history is in this category.

I claim the same science can be applied to the supernatural. If there is a historical record, then it can be investigated the same way other observed empirical events can.

Forensic science works because people are able to go into the laboratory and do the repeatable experiments that then allow forensic scientists to observe X and conclude Y. That is why they are able to determine that a person's DNA profile is unique as are fingerprints. Without the DNA and fingerprint databases to back them up, what could they determine from a single fingerprint other than that it is a fingerprint?[/QUOTE]

I'm with you. But I believe a better analogy to investigating the supernatural would be investigating an ancient, dead civilization...

And the same type of investigation applies to the Bible's authenticity, the historical events surrounding Jesus of Nazareth, etc.

LightCC

Only if you are abstractly considering what people view to be the word of God.

But I'm not concerned with abstracts. I'm wondering why Christians who believe in Sola Scriptura do so. Also, there are movements that believe that the Bible is the only, direct, inerrant (in it's original language), perfect, Word of God. Where does this belief come from? Is it based on something in the Bible? Rational conclusions imposed on the Bible? What?

rhutchin

By definition, "Christians" are those who follow Christ and adhere to His teachings. Thus, we would expect them to believe only that which He had said so Sola Scriptura would initially apply only to that which Christ said and this would be found in the gospels. However, the apostles of Christ claimed to be messengers of Christ and to speak for Christ so Sola Scriptura expanded to include the rest of the NT. Because Christ claimed to be God and the OT represents that which God (and Christ) gave to the Jews through His prophets, we include the OT. After the NT period, there are no apostles to claim that Christ spoke through them. Thus, nothing is added to Sola Scriptura beyond the OT/NT. When Christians say that they believe in Sola Scriptura, they are saying that they accept the documents in the OT/NT to be the words of Christ that they, as Christians, choose to follow.

rhutchin

The Big Bang is a hypothesis about the beginning of the universe. It is based on the observation of events today and extrapolated back. It is not based on the observation of actual events and I would not call it observational science. Maybe it is. If so, fine.

The only events observed in evolution relate to species diversification and this is the same as creation science which is based on the same. There has been, from what I have read (granted, not extensive), no observation of a mutation, or other biological process, leading to a different animal.

Except that supernatural events tend to be one time events whereas observed empirical events can be repeated at different times with the same results. If forensic science could be applied to the supernatural, it could repeat the supernatural event, thus removing it from the supernatural.

Tough to do. You get limited data mixed with much speculation. Reminds me of the anthropolist, Margaret Mead, who wrote a book on the Samoans that was lauded when she wrote it and then found to be a fraud later on. Investigations of ancient civilizations tend to be prone to that from what I can see.

Shadowy Man

It is of course an observational science. Cosmology is the observation of the universe. Astronomers use instrumentation to make measurements of the light coming from outer space.

I think what you are trying to point out is that it isn't an *experimental* science. We don't have the opportunity to observe multiple incarnations of the universe. We have the one, and we can't repeat the events of the past.

So, it is more like archaeology, in that we need to try to develop a theoretical framework, based upon our understanding of the results of the experiments that produced our current Physics, within which we can place our current observations to create a coherent vision of what the universe may have been doing over its history.

It is certainly possible to do so and this is what cosmologists, and astronomers in general, are attempting to do.

Doug Shaver

To anyone who presupposes the Bible's divine origin, I'm sure it's very significant.

Oh, do they now? And what do you suppose makes them think such a thing?

Actually, the separation wouldn't have involved anything out of the ordinary. The processes that made it happen are happening all the time. We Californians see them up close and personal every now and then.

You say that as if it is implied by your other observations. I don't see the logical connection. Unless you can spell it out, the argument seems to be a non sequitur.

They have found evidence of flooding in lots of places throughout the world, but they're all more or less localized and they happened at lots of different times.

Wooster

And with this post you have shown me you live in lala-land.

Just another religious apologetic who refuse to accept reality because it shatters your belief and because of this, you stray from honesty. Have great life, you are now irrelevant to any discussion.

Doug Shaver

Then it's time you did some more reading.

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html

Doug Shaver

OK, but an awful lot of people disagree greatly with you about what those teachings actually were. An awful lot of people feel quite certain that his teachings had little or nothing in common with, for example, modern evangelicalism.