archibald

It was so subtle that Luke didn't seem to pick it up?

TedM

I know that 12 is a 'special' number, but for Jews I would think the primary significance is the 12 tribes of Israel. The idea would be to have a disciple representing each of the tribes of Israel--Jesus the savior of all Jewish people. In addition ALL of Israel is represented when the disciples go 'to all nations' to proclaim the good news.

But, there is no such follow-up and we can conclude that not all 12 tribes were represented because of the brothers. Why even have brothers if it is all made-up? Why have a 'Zealot' without using that to discuss the Zealot movement? Why does GJohn mention such seemingly meaningless 'facts' as Philip being from Bethsaida, the same place Peter and his brother Andrew were from? If orthodoxy created the 'twelve' at a later date, why do we have such odd data about them?

Since would-be Messiahs of the time Judas the Galilean and the Egyptian prophet had hundreds/thousands of followers, is it hard to believe that Jesus would have been able to hand-pick 12 of his own disciples from among his own followers?

Toto

By Jesus' time, the 12 separate tribes were lost in the mists of history. Picking a physical representative of each tribe would make the narrative clearly unhistorical.

But you still don't have any idea if the symbolism came from a historical Jesus or the narrator.

There are numerous instances where the Zealots are referred to indirectly. The gospels are not essays and do not "discuss" much. And Bethsaida means "house of fishing," although I think there are other possible symbolic meanings. The actual city has never been located with any certainty.

The inclusion of incidental details is not an indication of historicity.

Solo

Matthew and Luke make explicit the function of the twelve disciples as enthroned apocalyptic judges of the twelve tribes of Israel (Mt 19:28/Lk 22:30).

Jiri

stephan huller

Important point of reference = תרי עשר‎, Trei Asar, "The Twelve"

In standard Hebrew usage the name of the portion of writings incorporating the so-called 'minor prophets' (which appear before the 'major prophets' in the LXX) Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi.

Interestingly there seems to be some indication that the disciples were also referenced as 'the twelve' in many earlier traditions. Origen mentions a ους Δώδεκα Ευαγγελιον in his Homilies of Luke which was an old non-canonical gospel.

Whoever was promoting the existence of 'the twelve' was clearly part of or anticipated the so-called 'New Prophesy' movement.

Solo

Do you see any significance in Mark's use of the anarthrous form when introducing the Twelve ? (3:14, και εποιησεν δωδεκα cf LXX Jos 4:4 και ανακαλεσαμενος Ιησους δωδεκα ανδρας).

I read a paper a while back on Mark's use of Anarthrous Predicative Nouns but I can't say I am any wiser as to what idiomatic significance it may have with respect to the twelve. Any ideas ?

Best,
Jiri

stephan huller

The only anarthrous 'the Twelve' I can see is Mark 3:14 and it seems to go back to Aramaic. It is worth noting that the term apostles is found only here, Matthew 10:2 and six more times in Luke (6:13; 9:10; 11:49; 17:5; 22:14; 24:10).

TedM

IYO then is it suspicious for Paul to have known he was from the tribe of Benjamin?

I thought they were written as allegories, Toto.
:huh:

Right, but a narrator would have a much easier time of picking one person from each tribe. This narrator saw no need to even try, nor to even make the 'ideal' possible.


Not his own disciple! That's my point. Why include him in a fictional account if not to make a theological statement about it?

Details without a religious purpose sound historical.

Stringbean

Mack Burton WHO WROTE THE NEW TESTAMENT?
The Making of the Christian Myth
HarperCollins SanFrancisco (1995)

Burton has this to say:

Thought I would throw that out. I know no one is going to buy it but its just more gas on the fire so to speak.

TedM

It is interesting. I also noticed that in Acts, 'disciples' almost always refers to anyone who believed in Jesus (ie the early Christians were all 'disciples'), and 'apostles' was almost exclusively retained to refer to the twelve. GLuke refers to the twelve as apostles a few times, but disciples more often, but also has this:

Sounds to me like 'disciples' might be a term added later on by orthodoxy.