Ben C Smith

Another looping chain is: Paul postdates Justin, but Justin knows Marcion, and Marcion knows Paul.



Ben.

Solitary Man

An even clearer, and certainly indisputable, example. Thanks for it. I hope this puts to rest the terribly illogical argumentum a silentio for good.

schilling.klaus

This is ma lie by fraudulent apologistic charlatans like Holding.
Of course the Marcionite Paul predates Justin Martyr,
but the canonical Paul only got forged by Justin Martyr and his
henchmen for desinformational purposes.
This there's no looping at all.

Klaus Schilling

aa5874

You mean Simon was interested in the magical parts of the Jesus story, like raising the dead and the resurrection? That's what really happened in the story of Jesus.

So, basically, all you saying is that "first god" may or may not mean that Simon was the first and foremost magician and god, you're not sure. Your greek translation is inconclusive.

Well, you admit the fact that Justin does not mention "Paul", but if some speculative work is missing, maybe it had information that would have shown, without doubt, that "Paul" was a fabrication.

And I never used the word "uncontrovertedly", please read my post carefully.
I repeat, "Justin Martyr did not mention "Saul or Paul" in his extant writings, this MAY mean that "Paul" was fabricated after Justin.

Who was Jesus Christ in that cult? Nikola or the coil?

Ben C Smith

I do not know, because I do not know where the sources say such a thing. It does not take knowledge of the Jesus story to be interested in miracles in general; it does, however, take knowledge of at least some part of the Jesus story to claim that one was that person who appeared to suffer in Judea, just as it takes some knowledge of Nikola Tesla, or at least of his invention, to claim that one was the inventor of the Tesla coil.

No. I am saying that first in Greek frequently has nothing to do with time, and in these kinds of contexts it is pretty clear that most important is the intended meaning. I am saying that your reading is unlikely.

Sure, maybe. I am not the one using an argument from silence. You are.

You wrote that the extant writings of Justin Martyr appear to indicate that Paul was unknown even up to and around that time period. I am saying that the extant writings of Justin Martyr appear to indicate no such thing. Their silence on Paul is a lack of appearance of something, not the appearance of something.

The argument from Justin is just silly. Marcion knew Paul, and Marcion preceded Justin.

IIRC, Jesus Christ was a miracle worker whom one of the leaders had been in a previous life; another leader had been Mary Magdalene, I think.

Ben.

aa5874

But Justin Martyr wrote that Simon was a magician, and all who followed him were called Christians, possible hundreds of thousand of Samaritans, he never wrote about Simon as having suffered or crucified.

So, why didn't the translators of First Apology use "most important" instead of "first"to remove ambiguity? Maybe these translators were not sure if the greek word, in this instance, meant "first" in chronology, magnitude or a combination of both.

I would have thought the translators would have written the most likely translation of the greek word, and they wrote "first" not "most important".

So, why did you say this? Oh, I get it, "an argument from the lost".


An argument from silence.

Is Justin Martyr silly, because he did not mention "Paul" at all?
Justin did not confirm that Marcion knew "Paul". And Justin claimed Marcion was alive while he was writing First Apology.

Amaleq13

You appear confused about what constitutes an "argument from silence".

When one's conclusion is based upon the absence of evidence it is based upon an "argument from silence".

This appears to accurately describe your stated conclusion and that is all Ben has been trying to point out to you. The act of pointing this out does not, in any way, constitute an argument from silence.

andrewcriddle

I'm not sure here but I wonder if Justin simply means that all these weirdoes are regarded as Christians by the ignorant general public and this gives Christianity a bad name.

Although some of these groups would have called themselves Christians I am not sure that all would have and I doubt whether that is what Justin Martyr is claiming.

He seems to be talking about popular confusion about who the Christians really are rather than about what various fringe groups call themselves.

Andrew Criddle

Ben C Smith

Oh, I had forgotten that whatever Justin Martyr did not write about in our extant texts did not exist.



Probably because the translators knew that first, even in English, can often mean most important, and they wanted to be literal and consistent (a goal of many translators):

Being before all others with respect to time, order, rank, importance, etc. [Dictionary.com Unabridged.]

The one coming, occurring, or ranking before or above all others. [American Heritage Dictionary.]

Preceding all others in time or space or degree. [WordNet.]

When you hear somebody talk about the First Lady, do you assume he or she is talking about Eve? Or do you perhaps think of Laura Bush?

I guarantee those translators assumed the reader of their translation would know good English.

To remind you of the perils of arguing from silence. We do not have all that Justin wrote; therefore we do not know whether he ever mentioned Paul.

How do you know whether Justin ever mentioned Paul at all without having access to all that he wrote?

How do you know that Justin did not confirm that Marcion knew Paul in his (now lost) work against Marcion?

We do not need Justin to confirm for us that Marcion knew Paul, though having his lost work against Marcion would of course be welcome. Other fathers with direct access to the Antitheses, the Apostolikon, and the Evangelion confirm that Marcion knew Paul.

Yes, your argument is definitely an argument from silence.

Correct.

Ben.

Clivedurdle

When someone claims to be the Christ there are several possibilities.

Copying an earlier one - (but which one - Cyrus or Jesus?)
Everyone is doing it.
He actually is!
He actually is the first one to claim to be the Christ
He has morphed an earlier heavenly one into a real one

and probably more permutations!

What is this assumption that Simon Magus is copying an HJ? Evidence?