Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 01-26-2013, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller post 371

Could it be that Philo invented the name 'Therapeutai' to distinguish them from the Essenes?

No. Philo did not invent anything. The word, therapeutae, and the concept, are ancient, and associated with both the Greek empire, expanded under Alexander, and with colonies in Egypt, which precede arrival of Alexander, when Egypt was ruled by the Persians.

mediocrity Huller stands corrected. Furthermore it is impossible that the author of "VC" invented the name 'Therapeutai' because the name preexisted Philo in the sources. This is so simple.

It therefore should be completely obvious to every one that the author of "VC" borrowed this specific preexisting term from the pagan conceptual framework of antiquity.

The question is WHY the author of "VC" borrowed this specific preexisting term from the pagan conceptual framework of antiquity.

mountainman · 01-26-2013, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Oh, I know what this thread is about. It is about Pete riding in on one of his hobby horses and confusing different groups of ancient religious worshipers who merely shared the description "therapeutae," .....

There is one and one only source in antiquity through which any confusion might arise in the association of the name "therapeutae" with different groups in antiquity. All sources (and there appear to be a large number) in antiquity except one agree and corroborate each other in the hypothesis that the therapeutae were part of the pagan milieu - neither Jewish or Christian.

The one single source found in Philo's VC describing what the author calls "therapeutae" is the exception. This source differs from the scores of other sources in that it was "specially preserved" by the Early Centralised State Monotheistic Christian Church. Eusebius uses this source for his own agenda. And as aa5874 has pointed out, the author of "VC" does not explicitly state that this group was Jewish.

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In the course of it, I have learned that Acharya S agrees with Eusebius that the Therapeutae were early Christians,

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

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... every other modern scholar thinks that the group described by Philo as Therapeutae was clearly Jewish.

My bet is that modern scholars simply follow a received tradition. The OP questions this received tradition to which modern scholarship appears to have uncritically subscribed.

How you can call this questioning a hobby horse is beyond me.

aa5874 · 01-26-2013, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

We're boxed into thinking in terms of a Jewish philosophical sect.

If you look up and see a cardboard sky you know you're in the box.

The only thing boxing you in is your unwillingness to temporarily relinquish the hypotheses to which you have subscribed, in order to test out other alternative hypotheses.

However the claim has already been made that the person who authored "VC" (the only testimony AFAIK in antiquity for a Jewish sect of therapeutae) may NOT have been Philo. Whether Philo was Jewish or not has no bearing on the nationality of an unknown "Pseudo-Philo".

What's more the fact that this "Pseudo-Philo" trashed the Hellenic culture does not imply Pseudo-Philo was Jewish. Such a trashing might indicate that Pseudo-Philo may have been a 4th century Christian, to whom the Hellenes were heretics.

Again, "On the Contemplative Life" does NOT state anywhere that the Therapeutae were Jews or of Jewish origin that was SPECIFICALLY designated to the Essenes in Separate writings "Apology to the Jews" and "All Good Men are Free".

The writings of Philo are NOT Christian and had nothing whatsoever to do with the Jesus cult.

We know EXACTLY what the Roman Church most likely wrote or manipulated.

We have examples in the "Donation of Constantine", "Church History" and "Against Heresies".

The Roman Church did NOT write books about the Therapeutae--they wrote or manipulated books that claim Peter was the First Bishop of Rome, that Jesus was Equal to God and was God, the Creator and that the Roman Church is the Only True Church.

Chili · 01-26-2013, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The Roman Church did NOT write books about the Therapeutae--they wrote or manipulated books that claim Peter was the First Bishop of Rome, that Jesus was Equal to God and was God, the Creator and that the Roman Church is the Only True Church.

Peter is the twin of Thomas in faith and doubt, and when John's Jesus showed him his wounds Thomas was defeated now with all doubt Gone, just gone 'poof' in understanding as if Thomas was the Jew in him that they had crucified, and Thomas had to just go 'poof' as twin of faith in understanding and so now 'he was a bucket full of scraps' all by himself as pursecutor chief in charge so he might understand.

This is what left Peter defrocked = no more Jew in him and could not catch a thing all night when they went fishing again, naked here, to be sure, and then put on a new coat and dove in Head First, but now on the other side of the boat that they called the 'upper house' before and from there brought up all kinds of fish that were beyond comprehension from the lower house that was known as the Old Temple that so had to be destroyed, with no doubt about it, as these fish had Catholic spelled all over them, that was Universal to mankind as the image of Lord God as second cause that was identified by the son as third to be United with the first, now with no trinity inside Rome where they are the three-in-one in motion, portable even, as the master of the Universe with no Contemplatives among them, as sheer knowledge is their playing field so that Pure Reason willl prevail.

Naturally this would be beyond the world's scope of reference and always will be so.

Toto · 01-26-2013, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

...

My bet is that modern scholars simply follow a received tradition. The OP questions this received tradition to which modern scholarship appears to have uncritically subscribed.

How you can call this questioning a hobby horse is beyond me.

The received tradition is that Philo's therapeutae are Christians. Modern scholarship involves reading what Philo wrote and deciding that they were not Christian, but Jewish, and that Eusebius force fit them into his view of history.

A slight earlier tradition in scholarship questioned this passage in Philo because the scholars were Protestants and wanted to reject what they saw as an endorsement of the Catholic monastic tradition. This line of thought has not gone anywhere.

I don't see you questioning modern scholarship. I just see you confusing the various groups labeled as Therapeutae. Where exactly have you cited a modern scholar, analyzed the conclusions, and raised a question?

Your hobby horse is your worship of anything associated with Asclepius. You seem to think that the temples of Asclepius were like modern hospitals instead of pagan centers of faith healing.

tanya · 01-26-2013, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The received tradition is that Philo's therapeutae are Christians. Modern scholarship involves reading what Philo wrote and deciding that they were not Christian, but Jewish, and that Eusebius force fit them into his view of history.

A slight earlier tradition in scholarship questioned this passage in Philo because the scholars were Protestants and wanted to reject what they saw as an endorsement of the Catholic monastic tradition. This line of thought has not gone anywhere.

Are we supposed to accept these two pronouncements on faith, or did you wish to furnish some quotes to support your contention?

Only jews, so far as I am aware, imagine, incorrectly, in my opinion, that Philo had decided that the Therapeutae "... were not Christian, but Jewish..."

Most contemporary intellectuals recognize that there may be a distinction between what someone writes, and what they actually believe, particularly when addressing mythical constructs, i.e. any religion. Moreover, as aa5874 has elaborated, several times now, in this thread, Philo nowhere identifies the Therapeutae as Jewish, in VC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Your hobby horse is your worship of anything associated with Asclepius. You seem to think that the temples of Asclepius were like modern hospitals instead of pagan centers of faith healing.

I draw precisely the opposite conclusion from reading Pete's work. I believe you err, most egregiously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by History Learning Center

Hippocrates and other Greek doctors believed that the work done by a doctor should be kept separate from the work done by a priest. They believed that observation of a patient was a vital aspect of medical care. Ancient Greek doctors did examine their patients but Hippocrates wanted a more systematic period of observation and the recording of what was observed. Today, we would call this ‘clinical observation’. Such ideas have lead to Hippocrates being called the ‘Father of Medicine’.

The temples of Asklepius, unless you have some reference to the contrary, are in harmony with the work of Hippocrates, dogma which explicitly rejects superstitious thinking, and which demands clinical observation i.e. empiricist methodology.

I suggest you follow the same route, and furnish some links to support your notions. I am disinterested in garbage from the 'social scientists'. I need data from archaeological investigations to support your hypothesis that Asklepius' temples were erected, not to heal the injured, but to save the souls of some folks who failed to follow the instructions of the proper deity--a Christian notion.

You may wish to commence this arduous travail, by addressing the following question: Why bother to construct these huge buildings/temples, if all one seeks is to "save souls"? Contrarily, are these enormous complexes not indicative of a philosophy of keeping attentive watch on one's patients? You may wish to take a gander, in history, at one of my former stomping grounds, Hotel Dieu in Paris. When I was there, Pigeons would fly through the cavernous spaces; it was almost as though there were no ceiling.

The amphitheater was filled with beds, and sick people in the beds. It was huge. One looks at the pictures of the work at Kos, and the resemblance is uncanny.

Chili · 01-26-2013, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

The amphitheater was filled with beds, and sick people in the beds. It was huge. One looks at the pictures of the work at Kos, and the resemblance is uncanny.

Then they must have been Christians with nothing to contemplate, except maybe a new salvation recipe. And was the water hot, with fire under it?

Toto · 01-26-2013, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The received tradition is that Philo's therapeutae are Christians. Modern scholarship involves reading what Philo wrote and deciding that they were not Christian, but Jewish, and that Eusebius force fit them into his view of history.

A slight earlier tradition in scholarship questioned this passage in Philo because the scholars were Protestants and wanted to reject what they saw as an endorsement of the Catholic monastic tradition. This line of thought has not gone anywhere.

Are we supposed to accept these two pronouncements on faith, or did you wish to furnish some quotes to support your contention?

There have been links furnished in the thread to the work of Joan Taylor and others.

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Only jews, so far as I am aware, imagine, incorrectly, in my opinion, that Philo had decided that the Therapeutae "... were not Christian, but Jewish..."

I don't think so, but I don't think the religious preference of scholars is recorded.

Quote:

Most contemporary intellectuals recognize that there may be a distinction between what someone writes, and what they actually believe, particularly when addressing mythical constructs, i.e. any religion. Moreover, as aa5874 has elaborated, several times now, in this thread, Philo nowhere identifies the Therapeutae as Jewish, in VC.

But he does say that they study Jewish scripture, keep the Sabbath, and follow Jewish based rituals. :huh:

Quote:

I draw precisely the opposite conclusion from reading Pete's work. I believe you err, most egregiously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by History Learning Center

Hippocrates and other Greek doctors believed that the work done by a doctor should be kept separate from the work done by a priest. They believed that observation of a patient was a vital aspect of medical care. Ancient Greek doctors did examine their patients but Hippocrates wanted a more systematic period of observation and the recording of what was observed. Today, we would call this ‘clinical observation’. Such ideas have lead to Hippocrates being called the ‘Father of Medicine’.

The temples of Asklepius, unless you have some reference to the contrary, are in harmony with the work of Hippocrates, dogma which explicitly rejects superstitious thinking, and which demands clinical observation i.e. empiricist methodology.

I suggest you follow the same route, and furnish some links to support your notions. I am disinterested in garbage from the 'social scientists'. I need data from archaeological investigations to support your hypothesis that Asklepius' temples were erected, not to heal the injured, but to save the souls of some folks who failed to follow the instructions of the proper deity--a Christian notion.

Does this sound like the modern scientific evidence based medicine?

Historywiz

The temple at Epidaurus began as a healing shrine. The process of healing was known as incubation. The patient spent the night at the temple. During the night they would be visited by the god in a dream. Priests would then interpret the dreams and prescribe treatment.

Epidaurus also took in seriously ill patients, providing them with sanctuary. The Roman emperor Antoninus Pius later expanded the site at Epidaurus by building a 180 room structure for the dying and for women in childbirth. Most of the Temples of Healing were built in wooded valleys close to springs and caves where 'good spirits' were thought to dwell.

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You may wish to commence this arduous travail, by addressing the following question: Why bother to construct these huge buildings/temples, if all one seeks is to "save souls"? Contrarily, are these enormous complexes not indicative of a philosophy of keeping attentive watch on one's patients? ....

See above. The temples housed those who were waiting for a divine message through their dreams.

Chili · 01-26-2013, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

You may wish to commence this arduous travail, by addressing the following question: Why bother to construct these huge buildings/temples, if all one seeks is to "save souls"? Contrarily, are these enormous complexes not indicative of a philosophy of keeping attentive watch on one's patients? ....

See above. The temples housed those who were waiting for a divine message through their dreams.

Correct and divine messages do not come in dreams, and if they do they are immitations of the divine by Lucifer to dreamers who do not have a dream to live in life.

Just compare the dream in Joseph with the intuit annunciation in Luke that was first hand from God via Gabriel of God . . . and then look at the Mega churches we have now and how many people go there to get healed.

mountainman · 01-26-2013, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The received tradition is that Philo's therapeutae are Christians. Modern scholarship involves reading what Philo wrote and deciding that they were not Christian, but Jewish, and that Eusebius force fit them into his view of history.

Modern scholarship accepts "VC" at face value as an integrous source.

Modern scholarship also appears to involve "special pleading" by focussing attention on this one source "VC" while simultaneously not mentioning the ancient historical reality that the pagan therapeutae were conspicuous as being everywhere in the empire, and sponsored by practically all of the Roman Emperors via their association with Asclepius the Healing god.

Quote:

A slight earlier tradition in scholarship questioned this passage in Philo because the scholars were Protestants and wanted to reject what they saw as an endorsement of the Catholic monastic tradition.

The earlier tradition essentially questioned that Philo was the author of the entire book "VC" on the basis that it described a monastic tradition for which we have little or no evidence before the 3rd or 4th century.

Quote:

This line of thought has not gone anywhere.

The line of thought that "VC" describes a 1st century group of Jewish therapeutae has also gone nowhere.

IMO this line of thought can be taken further because we may infer that as a result of Constantine's prohibition on temple services c.324/325 CE and thereafter, large groups of pagan therapeutae, unable to attend the temples, gathered near Alexandria, but "out of town".

We may infer from this that a 4th century Christian witness to the gathering of the (politically disbanded) pagan therapeutae could have authored "VC" in order to make us think that these therapeutae were not the ubiquitous and highly conspicuous pagan therapeutae (from whom the author of "VC" borrowed the term therapeutae itself) but were a Christian or a Jewish phenomenom.

A number of other related question arise at this stage. What do the Christian authors say about the pagan therapeutae leading up to Nicaea, and what do they say about the pagan therapeutae after Nicaea? Did the pagan therapeutae just "suddenly disappear"?

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I don't see you questioning modern scholarship. I just see you confusing the various groups labeled as Therapeutae.

The question is whether modern biblical scholarship has indulged in special pleading by raising the CHURCH-PRESERVED source called "VC" to an authority on the question "Who were the therapeutae in antiquity".

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Where exactly have you cited a modern scholar, analyzed the conclusions, and raised a question?

For the evidence of the ubiquitous presence of the pagan therapeutae (via the Asclepian temples) I have cited the Edelsteins. More recently I have elsewhere mentioned Asclepius: The God of Medicine by Gerald David Hart

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerald David Hart

Most academic giants of antiquity proclaimed their esteem
for Asclepius and the words of these philosophers, historians,
rhetoricians, poets, politicians and physicians are cited in
the "Edelstein Testimonies". (See Article 02)

1) Plato recorded the dying words of Socrates:
"Crito, we owe a cock to Asclepius. Pay it
and do not neglect to do so." (Plato, Phaedro)

2) Sophocles accepted Asclepius into his house
and set up an altar for him. After his death,
the Athenians called Sophacles: "Dexion" [the
one who receives] because of his reception of
Asclepius.

3) The Neo-Platonists believed that Asclepius was
the soul of the world, by which creation was held
together and filled with symmetry and balanced
union.

4) Pausanius (Descriptio Graeciae, 8:28) that Alexander
the Great dedicated his spear and breastplate to
Asclepius at Gortys in Arcadia.

5) 23 CE Tacitus recorded that Tiberius confirmed
the right of asylum to Cos.

6) Aristides (129-89 CE) ...
"the one who is guider and ruler of all things,
the saviour of the universe and the guardian
of immortals" (Oration 62)

"give me as much health as I need for my body
to obey that which my soul wishes" (Oration 38)

"Here the stern cable of salvation for all
is anchored in Ascelpius." (Oration 23)

7) Julian "Asclepius heals our bodies, the Muses
train our souls with the help of Asclepius and
Apollo and Hermes. (Contra Galilaeos).

8) 53 CE Emperor Claudius granted Coans immunity
from taxes and declared their island a place
sanctified only to Asclepius.

9) After earthquake at Epidaurus in 1st half of
2nd century CE, Senator Antoninus rebuilt the
sanctuary and adorned it with magnificent
monuments.

10) Soranus (2nd century) wrote: "Hippocrates,
by birth, was a Coan ... who traced his
ancestry back to Heracles (Hercules) and
Asclepius, the 20th in descent from the
former, the 19th to the latter.

11) Galen (129-99 CE) recorded the contemporary
building of the temple of Zeus Asclepius
at Pergamum.

"the ancestral god Asclepius, whose servant
I declare myself to be, for he saved me
when I was suffering from a deadly condition
of an abscess."

12) Epigrammata Graeca 1027 (2nd-3rd century CE)
exhorted "Wake, Paeon Asclepius, lord of men ..."

13) Asclepius was everywhere in literature and
everyone was familiar with his deeds. In the
second century he stood at the peak of his
power and influence and was known through
the ancient world.

14) He became identified as Imhotep Asclepius in
Egypt, Eshmun Asclepius in Phoenicia, Zeus
Asclepius at Pergamum and Jupiter Aesculapius
in Rome. [47,48] One might have justifiably hailed
him as Aesculapius Optimus Maximus.

15) Many of his tenmples occupied prestigious
locations such as the Acropolis at Athens,
and at the city of Carthage ...

16) p.205 - Asclepian heritage

Aristophanes, Plutus 639-40:
The chorus in the Greek play 'Plutus' sang:

"I shall sing with all my might to Asclepius,
Blest with his offspring, he who brings
great light to mortals."

Quote:

Your hobby horse is your worship of anything associated with Asclepius.

If I worship anything at all as an amateur historian it is the evidence itself and this entire OP has sought EVIDENCE. We have truckloads of evidence for the pagan therapeutae of Asclepius, but as far as evidence for a Jewish group of therapeutae, we have only one CHURCH-PRESERVED source, a text called "VC" and included among the books of Philo, but which may not have been authored by Philo.

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You seem to think that the temples of Asclepius were like modern hospitals instead of pagan centers of faith healing.

You are way out of your depth Toto.

The rod of Asclepius is still the dominant emblem of the modern medical profession.

Those who have seriously researched the history of modern medicine would find your above comment frivolous and uninformed.

Asclepius: Collection and Interpretation of the Testimonies (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Emma J. Edelstein, Ludwig Edelstein, Gary B. Ferngren

Quote:

Originally Posted by Book Description

Throughout nearly all of antiquity, the legendary Greek physician,
Asclepius, son of Apollo and Coronis, was not only the primary
representative of divine healing, but also so influential in the
religious life of later centuries that, as Emma J. Edelstein and
Ludwig Edelstein point out,

"in the final stages of paganism, of all genuinely Greek gods,
[he] was judged the foremost antagonist of Christ."

We therefore see clearly the political tension between the pagan therapeutae of Asclepius
and the New and Strange Centralised Monotheistic State Christian cult of Nicaea.

Asclepius: the Greatest Gift of the Helenes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emperor Julian in Against the Galilaeans

I had almost forgotten the greatest of the gifts of Helios and Zeus. But naturally I kept it for the last. And indeed it is not peculiar to us Romans only, but we share it, I think, with the Hellenes our kinsmen. I mean to say that Zeus engendered Asclepius from himself among the intelligible gods, and through the life of generative Helios he revealed him to the earth.

Asclepius, having made his visitation to earth from the sky, appeared at Epidaurus singly, in the shape of a man; but afterwards he multiplied himself, and by his visitations stretched out over the whole earth his saving right hand. He came to Pergamon, to Ionia, to Tarentum afterwards; and later he came to Rome. And he travelled to Cos and thence to Aegae.

Next he is present everywhere on land and sea. He visits no one of us separately, and yet he raises up souls that are sinful and bodies that are sick.

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