Toto

The OP is only about the monogram Chi Rho and Constantine's labarum. Nothing about a Jupiter-Zeus spin off.

Jupiter and Zeus were only mentioned by Clivedurdle as two gods from different cultures who were identified with each other, with a suggestion (and no evidence) that Christ and Chronos might have had a similar relationship. No one has any evidence to support this.

"Chinese whispers" would not explain the origins of Christianity, but might explain how some elements or names or symbols got confused.

And then gurugeorge gave his timeline of Christianity, which he admits is a bit off topic.

There is a bit of confusion here, with people throwing out unrelated ideas to see what sticks. Sorry for getting upset.

thentian

There is an astounding lack of pictures of obviously non-christian Chi Rho monograms on the net. After four hours of searching I haven't found a single one, and only two I thought might possibly be non-christian.

mountainman

Emperor Julian c.362 CE writes about the festival of the Kronia. What relation does the festival of Kronia have to do with the notion of "Chronos" (if any)?

Best wishes,


Pete

Clivedurdle

British Museum has Gods With Thunderbolts: Religion in Roman Britain (or via: amazon.co.uk)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gods-Thunder.../dp/0752425188

which discusses Brading, and very interestingly notes that the commonly depicted Griffin is very likely to be an interpretation of a dinosaur skeleton. The cyclops and Mastodon has earlier been collated.

This book notes that the relationships between xian and other religious symbols are very complex but that the relationships are there.

mountainman

Dear Clivedurdle,

The "earliest christians" included "christian heretics" who were forgers and interpolators, copyists who were unfaithful in the preservation of literature. They needed raw materials for this. They borrowed freely from all greek literature, and not just the greek LXX. The cultural milieu of "early christianity" "lived and breathed and moved and had its being and psychological heretage[/i] within the spirit of Zeus - the Graeco part of the Graeco-Roman empire. We learn that certain unscrupulous "christian heretics: attempted to infiltrate the new testament canon, and the books of Origen. The Christian Origen, not the neopythagorean Origen. The pagan Origen who was the pupil of Ammonias Saccas, the pagan Ammonias, not the christian Amonias Saccas. No literature was sacrosanct to perversion for these "christian heretics".

We still cannot be sure the new testament was not an heretic bible, selected by Constantine. But we can be sure that the unfaithful copyists of Josephus, and the letter exchange between Jesus and Agbar, were still alive and kicking against the faithful orthodox.

Of course the chronology of the entire modern era is measured "since the incarnation" of the "Historical" jesus. This may be presented as a significant connection between the two concepts, so long as the history of the first century of the common era is not examined too closely.

Identifying any parallels between Chronos and Christos leads us to consider also the very many other parallels between Jesus and other greek figures of either mythology or history, such as, in no specific order .... Asclepius, Apollo, Zeus, Apollonius of Tyana, perhaps Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Pythagoras, Ammonias Saccas (the neo-pythagorean) .... (Krshna, Buddha, the ascetic masters of India, the list organically grows when the cultural borders are also opened.) In all these greek parallels is evidence of simple minded literary cloning.

Today, we call such practice "breach of copyright".
Or perhaps, colloquially, re-badging.
Sherlock Holmes however suspects common forgery.


Best wishes,



Pete

figuer

Chronos=Saturn; Is there a DIRECT connection between the Saturn myth/worship and the Christ myth/worship? Not apparent.

All mythology/symbology mixes into each other. Jesus' birth was placed under Capricorn, ruled by Saturn. Saturn/Chronos rules time, Christ was the Alpha-Omega. These are casual overlaps of attributes and symbols, not indications of causation.

figuer

Zeus and Jupiter are similar god-heads to which the same myths were applied. Christ and Chronos are completely different theistic conceptions sharing no common mythology. I see no base for such speculations.

Clivedurdle

I reopened this thread to note the very real possibility that some Roman pictures may actually be of dinosaurs.

My point is not about direct causation, but how when we see something strange we interpret it according to our pre existing ideas.

We may never be able to tease out direct causes, but the problem is that our minds take this, add in that and come up with saviours of the universe godmen!

I know it is not neat and tidy but if the starting point is extremely messy that should be clearly acknowledged, and scepticism should be shown towards those who positively assert a real Jesus as a basis for all this when all the evidence of how our minds work and how societies change points in a completely different direction.

mountainman

Dear figuer,

The season of the Kronia, or the latin Saturnalia is a Roman winter solstice festival, dedicated to Saturn, commencing on 17 December and celebrated for a whole week, up to 23 December. It was traditional that the master-slave role (or equivalent) was reversed, gifts exchanged, etc, and symbolised by the preparation of a meal by the masters, for the slaves. The use of green trees was a common custom and adornment.

In any other words, the festival got hijacked by Constantine c.325 CE, just after he had hijacked Sunday in 321 CE, to become what is known today as "christmas". In the Roman calendar, the Saturnalia was designated a holy day, or holiday, on which religious rites were performed. Saturn, himself, was identified with Kronos, and sacrificed to according to Greek ritual, with the head uncovered. The Temple of Saturn, the oldest temple recorded by the pontiffs, had been dedicated on the Saturnalia, and the woolen bonds which fettered the feet of the ivory cult statue within were loosened on that day to symbolize the liberation of the god. --- For further information see Macrobius.]

While all mythology/symbology eventually mixes into each other, certain mythology/symbology was blatantly christianised by the Roman state by means of imperial edicts. Happy (better late than never) xmas btw

Best wishes,


Pete

Clivedurdle

Anyone else reminded of a cuckoo in the nest?