Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Huon · 06-29-2009, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Are news reporters unable or unwilling to point out obvious absurdities in Vatican pronouncements?

The Washington Post quotes the Osservatore Romano (Vatican). The Osservatore Romano is certainly unwilling to point out obvious absurdities in Vatican pronouncements, and for the Washington Post, I cannot tell. Perhaps it is tongue in mouth?

PhilosopherJay · 06-29-2009, 07:04 AM

Hi aa5874,

I believe Rome had a population of about one million during this period. If the average life expectancy was 40 years (probably on the high side), that means that the bone fragments could belong to any of one million times five (200 years divided by 40) or five million Roman who lived there during that period. However there is no reason to believe that the bones had to belong to someone living in Rome. In fact, according to biblical sources Paul was not born in Rome. If there were 50 million in the Roman empire with a life expectancy, let us presume, of approximately 33 years, then the bone fragments could belong to any of 50 million times (200 years divided by 33)approximately six or 300 million people. So the odds of the bone fragments belonging to Paul are one in 300 million. However, we have to take into account that Paul was simply a fictional character. Let us say that the odds are 50%. This leaves us with a one in 600 million chance of the bone fragments belonging to Paul.

The Pope proclaims this one in 600 million odds to be certainty. Is it not marvelous to see such faith in an 82 year old man?

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I think millions of people lived between the 1st and 2nd century and hundreds of thousands died during the same time.

Roger Pearse · 06-29-2009, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Serious news story

Quote:

[Pope] Benedict said archaeologists recently unearthed and opened the white marble sarcophagus located under the Basilica of St. Paul's Outside the Walls in Rome, which for some 2,000 years has been believed by the faithful to be the tomb of St. Paul.

Benedict said scientists had conducted carbon dating tests on bone fragments found inside the sarcophagus and confirmed that they date from the first or second century.

"This seems to confirm the unanimous and uncontested tradition that they are the mortal remains of the Apostle Paul," Benedict said, announcing the findings at a service in the basilica to mark the end of the Vatican's Paoline year, in honor of the apostle.

Are news reporters unable or unwilling to point out obvious absurdities in Vatican pronouncements?

Which "obvious absurdities"?

Quote:

Another serious story

The Pope went on to condemn divorce, drugs...

The fiend!

Quote:

... , and thinking for oneself.

Where?

Quote:

There was no discussion of why Paul would have been buried with expensive cloth usually reserved for the nobility.

Um, did it say he was?

Come, it's an interesting report, and surely we want to know more?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

aileron · 06-29-2009, 07:43 AM

Quote:

It found traces of a valuable purple fabric, in linen and gold layer-laminated, and a blue fabric with linen threads.

Purple fabric was supposed to have been exceptionally expensive back then and worn only by people in high office, and throw in gold layering to boot. Does this jibe with the supposed remains of an itinerant preacher living an austere life?

show_no_mercy · 06-29-2009, 08:13 AM

There were two huge wars with the Jews at the end of the first century and beginning of the second. Why are they assuming that these bones belong to Paul? Why not the thousands of other dead Jews from those two wars? What if the bones belong to Josephus?

Lógos Sokratikós · 06-29-2009, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The Pope went on to condemn .... thinking for oneself.

"Plato's critical questioning
is a menace to the state"

--- Oration at Antioch, c.324 CE

I think he meant selfishness, not thinking by oneself.

Lógos Sokratikós · 06-29-2009, 08:25 AM

Wait till the Mormons show the world Joseph Smith's bones. Then we'll have to convert. Because if someone existed, it means everything they said was true. Especially if you have bones carbon-dated to roughly the same period, no matter how many millions of males died in those two centuries!

Toto · 06-29-2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benedict

“In the last few decades the expression ‘grown-up faith’ has spread,” Benedict XVI said. “It is often used in relation to the attitudes of those who no longer pay attention to what the Church and its Pastors say—which is to say, those who choose on their own what to believe or not believe in a sort of ‘do-it-yourself’ faith. Expressing oneself against the Magisterium of the Church is presented as a sort of ‘courage’, whereas in fact not much courage is needed because one can be certain that it will get public applause.

So you can think for yourself only if you reach the conclusion that the Magisterium is absolutely correct.

The Holy Father also noted:

Quote:

“We must become new men,” the Holy Father said, “transformed in a new way of existence. The world is always looking for new things because it is rightly unhappy of reality as it is. Paul told us that without new men the world cannot be renewed. Only if there are new men will there be a new world, a renewed and better world.”

When you quote someone who died roughly 2000 years ago on the need for a "new man," you have to wonder why the last 2000 years of believing in the Magisterium has failed to produce this new man. Could there be a mistake in the original analysis?

arnoldo · 06-29-2009, 09:36 AM

For thos interested Eusebius writes about the martyrdom of Paul in his Chronicles of Church History, book three, Chapter 25. The Persecution under Nero in which Paul and Peter were honored at Rome with Martyrdom in Behalf of Religion.

aileron · 06-29-2009, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

For thos interested Eusebius writes about the martyrdom of Paul in his Chronicles of Church History, book three, Chapter 25. The Persecution under Nero in which Paul and Peter were honored at Rome with Martyrdom in Behalf of Religion.

Would this be the same Eusebius who entitled chapter 31 of book 12 of his Preparation for the Gospel this way:

Chapter title: That it will be necessary sometimes to use falsehood as a remedy for the benefit of those who require such a mode of treatment

Is this the same Eusebius?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-29-2009, 08:13 AM	#15
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	There were two huge wars with the Jews at the end of the first century and beginning of the second. Why are they assuming that these bones belong to Paul? Why not the thousands of other dead Jews from those two wars? What if the bones belong to Josephus?

06-29-2009, 08:25 AM	#17
Lógos Sokratikós Contributor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Virtually right here where you are Posts: 11,138	Wait till the Mormons show the world Joseph Smith's bones. Then we'll have to convert. Because if someone existed, it means everything they said was true. Especially if you have bones carbon-dated to roughly the same period, no matter how many millions of males died in those two centuries!

06-29-2009, 09:36 AM	#19
arnoldo Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Latin America Posts: 4,066	For thos interested Eusebius writes about the martyrdom of Paul in his Chronicles of Church History, book three, Chapter 25. The Persecution under Nero in which Paul and Peter were honored at Rome with Martyrdom in Behalf of Religion.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.