Freethought & Rationalism Archive

show_no_mercy · 09-16-2010, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Please tone down the outrage.

Haven't you heard? The internet is serious business.

spamandham · 09-16-2010, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Here we have Paul essentially telling us that it was some kind of performance. I have never seen an HJer explain this in a sensible way:

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.

Further, the passion reads like a play. Could Christianity have been the Order of the Jedi of its day - a religion created by a performance?

You shouldn't depend on an outmoded translation. Here's the verb you're relying on to mean "portray". It's about writing, something like "aforementioned" here.

spin

Ok, thanks! What is Paul telling us here?

Chaucer · 09-16-2010, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaucer

<quoting Judge>

"those who think Jesus to have been some person, but who dont see much in the way of eye witness input."

Chaucer

The standard model says that there is not much in the way of eyewitness input, but still there is a historical kernal. There were originally eyewitnesses, who told stories, which became oral traditions, that became legends, that resulted in the gospels. Historical Jesus professionals think that they can walk this process back to get a glimpse of the original historical core. So I don't see why Option B is not a good choice for you.

Because the very writer of Option B himself has parsed Option B as "there is little hope for the person passing on the tradition knowing any reality in the tradition". That is _not_ my position. Instead, graded levels of the original reality behind the tradition can be found in _selected_ texts inside and outside the NT. And I repeat that leaving out that historical _non_-supernatural mainstream option as clearly laid out by Judge is tantamount to leaving out Obama in a Presidential poll. Fact: Option D would now have one more vote than it currently has if Option B had not been an ill-worded trap whose real meaning has now been plainly divulged by its writer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

You could set up a poll with a multitude of gradations - Jesus was purely fictional from the 4th century, Jesus was purely fiction from the 2nd century, the Jesus story evolved from revelations to disciples supposedly from someone who died 100 BC, Jesus was a cynic sage, Jesus was a purely Jewish prophet, Jesus was a deranged apocalyptic madman, Jesus was a Eunuch, Jesus was an angel, etc, etc, for every variation of mythicism and historicism. But then the poll would take up the entire page, and you might get one vote for each and no indication of any trend.

And pray tell, how does the current poll give any better indication of a trend? Do you think one can see any trend in a Presidential poll that leaves out Obama? The _missing_ HJ option as described by Judge is just as mainstream as Obama.

Chaucer

spin · 09-16-2010, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Here's the verb you're relying on to mean "portray". It's about writing, something like "aforementioned" here.

What is Paul telling us here?

As I understand your question, Paul seems to think these naughty Galatians have already heard the good word via letter (or similar), yet they aren't on the road Paul thinks they should be on because others have led them astray ("who bewitched you").

spin

Toto · 09-16-2010, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaucer

...Fact: Option D would now have one more vote than it currently has if Option B had not been an ill-worded trap whose real meaning has now been plainly divulged by its writer.

...

OK, I discovered that I have the super power to edit the poll. I deducted one from B and added one to D.

At your service.

I hope you are happy.

:devil:

Because the internets is serious business.

Chaucer · 09-16-2010, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaucer

...Fact: Option D would now have one more vote than it currently has if Option B had not been an ill-worded trap whose real meaning has now been plainly divulged by its writer.

...

OK, I discovered that I have the super power to edit the poll. I deducted one from B and added one to D.

At your service.

I hope you are happy.

Very happy. Thank you!

Cheers,

Chaucer

judge · 09-16-2010, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaucer

if Option B had not been an ill-worded trap whose real meaning has now been plainly divulged by its writer.

Having posted here for 7 years now, I have to say it seemed like a trap to me. :devil1:

aa5874 · 09-17-2010, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph2ter

Maybe all started with a collection of oracles taken from the OT about anticipating messiah.
When that was merged with the philosophical background taken from Philo, the picture crystallized. The Jewish expectation was a real human messiah, so emerging picture of messiah was forced to take some form of physical appearance. In the beginning it was thought that his time on earth will happen very soon in the future, but then someone started to argue that he already saw him and received a message from him. Very soon there were more of them who claimed that they 'saw' him. Afterward those who 'saw' him took over the whole messianic movement. This spiritual entity 'said' to one of them that he was already crucified and resurrected exactly as they knew that before from the OT oracles. In the meantime the picture of messiah accreted more and more things from the OT prophecies. The emphasis was on the crucifixion, the baptism and a sacral meal, all that ritual stuff which was needed for initiation and consummation of this new religion. At some point someone from the second generation of messianists made a literary creation about earthly carrier of messiah based on the interpretation of OT oracles by the first generation. His work was probably ordered by the sect highest officials. They needed such work to complete their religious worldview. In that work he put earthly carrier of messiah in the time immediately before the first generation of messianists started to claim that they 'saw' him. The whole work was brilliant and because it was in resonance with the general and unspoken desire, the idea took over the whole movement.

Theories of MASS hullicinations, Mass embellishments, and Mass AMNESIA cannot be supported or are extremely weak.

The Jesus cult movement must or was likely to have started extremely small like any cult. As can be seen in the writings of the Church there were NUMEROUS Christians cults and some of these Christian cult may have been in existence before the Jesus cult movement.

There were Christians of antiquity who appear NOT to believe in Jesus but ONLY in God.

Now Christian CULTS that believed in God only did NOT need a human figure. There were Christian Cults that DID NOT believe that God need any SACRIFICE to REMIT sins.

These Christians or Christian cults did NOT need a human figure or Sacrifice and their God was before the Jesus story.

There is just simply NO external corroborative evidence that the Jesus cult was ALREADY known throughout the Roman BEFORE the Fall of the Temple as the Pauline writers proposed and that Roman citizens worshiped Jesus a Jew as a God and Messiah before the Fall of the TEMPLE even though Mass Embellishments, Hallucinatios and Anmesia.

Extant records of antiquity from Roman writers about the 1st century do not support any Jesus Messiah real or imagined who was worshiped as God by Roman citizens before the Fall of the Temple.

gurugeorge · 09-17-2010, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The Jesus cult movement must or was likely to have started extremely small like any cult. As can be seen in the writings of the Church there were NUMEROUS Christians cults and some of these Christian cult may have been in existence before the Jesus cult movement.

There were Christians of antiquity who appear NOT to believe in Jesus but ONLY in God.

Now Christian CULTS that believed in God only did NOT need a human figure. There were Christian Cults that DID NOT believe that God need any SACRIFICE to REMIT sins.

These Christians or Christian cults did NOT need a human figure or Sacrifice and their God was before the Jesus story.

Great stuff, aa.

There seems to have been such a miscellaneous grab-bag of things called Christianity, some in which the figure of Christ hardly figured at all (and this is particularly striking in the extant earliest archeological evidence). The HJ proponent has to explain how this situation came to be under the supposition that there was an eponymous historical founder (although of course for this to work as the likely correct explanation, they have to first show that there was such a founder).

The Mythicist has no problem accepting early "Christianity" for what the evidence suggests it was - a miscellaneous grab-bag.

Which is exactly what you'd get if "Christianity" was at first only a loosely-related set of mythical ideas (kind of like the "New Age" today).

Clivedurdle · 09-17-2010, 01:15 PM

So the Gospels created the Historical Jesus?

Much like football and cricket were played for centuries with no or minimal formal rules then the rules were formalised, Jesus is the equivalent of the Marylebone Cricket Club or the Queensbury Rules.

View Poll Results: How do you think the writing of the christian gospels began?
It was based on first hand accounts of real events.	4	4.94%
It was based on the developing oral traditions of the nascent religion.	39	48.15%
It was a literary creation.	22	27.16%
None of the above. (Please explain.)	9	11.11%
Don't Know.	5	6.17%
Carthago delenda est	2	2.47%
Voters: 81. You may not vote on this poll

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09-17-2010, 01:15 PM	#60
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	So the Gospels created the Historical Jesus? Much like football and cricket were played for centuries with no or minimal formal rules then the rules were formalised, Jesus is the equivalent of the Marylebone Cricket Club or the Queensbury Rules.

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