mountainman

Jesus is a fictional character in a thing called by the Emperor
Julian c.362 CE "The Fabrication of the Galilaeans". Moreover
he wrote that he was convinced that this was a fiction of
men composed by wickedness.

There was an ADD and a DELETE in the fourth century.
Jesus Christ was ADDED to the literature. Apollonius of
Tyana (the author, sage and philosopher) was DELETED
from the empire's literature. He (Apollonius) never claimed
to be god, and was just another in the tribe, or lineage,
of the neopythagorean philosophers leading to the 4th C.

In the fourth century, Constantine cut down the branch
of the Hellenic philosophy, and commenced persecutions
against the Hellenics. The writings of Porphyry were
edicted for destruction. Council of Nicaea.

What happened after the council in the next few hunded
years is eloquently told by Vlasis Rassias in his Demolish Them!,
centuries of christian persecutions of the "pagans".

We need to serious ask ourselves whether in fact this new christian
religion actually existed before the rise of Constantine, and in
fact whether, when Constantine published the very first fully
bound and complete "christian bible", whether or not the
"Ecclesiastical History" tendered to the empire at that time
by Constantine's church man Eusebius, was a pseudo-history.

If in fact we have been tendered a fourth century
pseudo-history then this implies a fictional Jesus.
One who does not breath, or live or die.

At the moment I have no supporting scientific and/or
archeological citations that there is any evidence
whatsoever for the existence of christians outside that
very literary tradition which was first published

and U N O P P O S E D

under the regime of a murderer and malevolent despot.

Gawen

How about drugged? Let's see if I can make this as short as I can.

"So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him; but when they came to Jesus they saw that he was already dead…" (John 19:32-33 RSV) After 3 hours? What could have made him succumb so quickly?

I have read that it was a Jewish custom that allowed for wine to be given to a condemned man, sometimes containing an opiate to ease the pain of crucifixion. Mark 15:23 tells us it was wine w/myrrh, Matthew says vinegar w/gall, John says vinegar on hyssop.

Hyssop is a fragrant mint that has highly aromatic and pungent leaves. Its leaves or stems are cooked for use as greens; it is used to season food, or to make more tasteful, the bitterness of gall and wine.

"The leaves were once used as a medicinal herb tea for pulmonary and catarrhal disorders." (Encarta Encyclopedia: MSN; Encarta Learning Zone)

"Catarrh: Inflammation of a mucous membrane; esp; one chronically affecting the human nose and air passages." (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary: G&C. Merriam Company)

Vinegar refers to sour wine. Wine mixed with gall ( I understand) is an opiate. All the accounts are bound into one momentary event, though expressed in different manners. Jesus drinks the 'potion' and is immediately rendered unconscious. Even in John, the opiate is given and Jesus cries out, losing consciousness at once. All the Gospel stories agree on this one point.

Vinegar, as prepared and used in the first century was, fermented, undiluted, grain alcohol. A mendicant-sour wine made up of pure alcohol (fermented. A sour liquid obtained by acetic fermentation of dilute alcoholic liquids. A sour tasting condiment and preservative prepared by two successive microbial processes, the first being an alcoholic fermentation effected by yeasts… (Encarta Encyclopedia; MSN Encarta Learning Center)

Vinegar: A sour liquid that is made by the fermentation of any numerous dilute alcoholic liquids into a liquid containing acetic acid… probably first made from wine (sour). (Encyclopaedia Britannica: www.britannica.com)
When used with, gall, it is becomes an opiate.

Gall, or bile, was used in ancient medicine and referred to as, wormwood. Added to sour wine, it could become a potent substance. Gall, is a source of, tannin, and when used in ancient medicine, tannin was a medical emulsion used to stop bleeding.

So Jesus drank the potion after 3 hours on the cross and then...what? Died? Passed out? Drug induced coma? Who the hell knows? And then there's the problem with the Greek in "…and gave up the ghost."

Upon death, the flow of blood stops and immediately flows to the lowest level of the body. If Jesus had been dead, the wound in his side would not have bled. Rather than prove tradition correct, this verse proves it is wrong. Jesus' heart was still beating. Or was it? I don't know. Apparently, everyone at the site had absolutely no knowledge of the reaction of normal bodily functions after death. Personally, I would have thought a Roman soldier would have this knowledge.

So they took juniour off the cross, but this ain't the end of the story.

Side note: Were the two others dead? Their legs were broken to keep them from lifting themselves up to aid both their breathing and circulation, thus to hasten their deaths. But there seems to have been little time even for this to result in death, for they were not left on the crosses but taken down almost at once.

"The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and saw the tomb, and how his body was laid; then they returned and prepared spices and ointments." (Luke 23:55 RSV)

"Body: soma; the body as a whole, whether of man or animals, dead or alive…" (A Lexicon and Concordance To The English-Greek New Testament)
There is no specific reference made to a 'dead' body in the scriptures.

In some of the gospels, Jesus is not attended for two days, an amazing delay, but in John,a flurry of activity takes place. Remember that they already had an ointment, tannin. If Jesus were dead, it would have been unnecessary to even mention the mendicant. All they needed now was a purgative to rid Jesus' system of the opiate that had rendered him unconscious. AH HA!! The plots thickens!!

"Nicodemus also, who had at first come to him by night, came bring a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds' weight." (John 19:39 RSV)

Myrrh was highly valued in ancient times as an ingredient of perfume and incense and was also used as an ointment. The myrrh mentioned in the Bible (see: Psalms 45:8; Song 4:14) is believed to have been a mixture of myrrh and the oleoresin, labdanum… The gum resin was also used as a stimulant tonic…" (Encarta Encyclopedia: MSN Encarta Learning Center)

So what to make of all this? The presence of such large amounts of purgatives can only indicate an effort to revive someone who is under the influence of narcotics, in this case, a powerful opiate mixed with grain alcohol. The mendicants used were of a potent nature, and in great quantity. Jesus was wrapped in linen with these medicinal herbs so that they were in contact with his entire body. (John 19:40: the New English Bible; "They took the body of Jesus and wrapped it, with spices, in strips of linen…")

And the next thing we read is:
"…you seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen, he is not here." (Mark 16:6 RSV)
I understand the word (ergethe)for, raised again, is not that of a resurrection from the dead, but to wake up from a sleep. It does not even imply, 'the sleep of death'. I am also led to understand that the Koine Greek does have a word (agastaseus) that means to be, 'raised to life again; resurrected'. It is used in Hebrews 11:35 only. But someone here can correct that if it is wrong.

Katheudon nekrous, means, to recall the dead to life; to arouse from the sleep of death. This term appears in John 5:21; Acts 26:8; II Corinthians 1:9. Nowhere is this term used in the Gospels in reference to Jesus or the resurrection.

So there you have it. An elaborate conspiracy to keep Jesus alive.


Not that I believe it....I'm just sayin.

~M~

resurrection appearences have jesus going through walls, dude. you need to answer for that under your explanation if jesus was merely a man.

EssEff

Well, then there's also bribery.

aa5874

Apparently Jesus did not die after the crucifixion, he was mistakenly thought to have died. According to the scriptures, Jesus was seen alive within a few days of the crucifixion.

If Jesus was a real person and was crucified, he must have recovered from his injuries, he could not have died. And according to Irenaeus in Against Heresies book 2, Jesus lived until he was at least fifty years old.

The lance must have surely missed his heart.

Gnomelord

Because I am only vaguely familiar with the text you speak of I am unable to respond and must concede the point.

wallflower1996

Erm, no. I answered for what I was talking about, which was his supposed appearance to his disciples, with an explanation, which was that he wasn't dead to begin with. That has nothing to do with anything else you or I are talking about.

~M~

jesus did such during his appearences, if he was not dead then what explains the floating through walls shit? you need to answer for that.

skepticalbip

The book, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail (or via: amazon.co.uk)" has an interesting, convoluted take on this whole thing. Dunno how much of it was research and how much was imagination or literary license.