Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jedi Mind Trick · 07-06-2006, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

Sending his son, Jesus, to die on a cross for their wrong doings, such that if they believe (ie. have faith) in him they'll have eternal life. But you knew that already because it's the all-too-familiar John 3:16.

"Those that believe not are condemned already..." or some such. This is well the majority from all time. Pretty weak fix to the problem of an alleged hell, me thinks.

Haran · 07-06-2006, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Kadesh Barnea. Which means we should expect to find at least their latreens, garbage heaps, broken pottery and other discarded materials.

Yes, but though there is a Kadesh Barnea, they are not positive it is the Kadesh Barnea. Even if it is, I do not believe that extensive excavations have been done there. Am I incorrect?

Haran · 07-06-2006, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomboyMom

To come at it from another angle, wouldn't Egyptian records say something about Hebrew slaves and their escape? My understanding is that:

"The many Egyptian documents known to us do not make any reference to the sojourn of the Children of Israel in Egypt or the events of the Exodus." Ze'ev Herzog, professor at Tel Aviv University

I would not assume that they would want to record such an event. Did they not mainly (perhaps only) record their victories (or at least spin things as victories)?

Haran · 07-06-2006, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Well, I would like you to explain how magicians, without the help of God, created swarms of frogs to cover the land of Egypt and how these same magicians turned all the rivers, ponds and vessels of water to blood.

I have not been able to get any information about these magicians from any-one who believes in God. Can you help me?

Interesting question. I'll try to get to it later.

xaxxat · 07-06-2006, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

Yes, but though there is a Kadesh Barnea, they are not positive it is the Kadesh Barnea. Even if it is, I do not believe that extensive excavations have been done there. Am I incorrect?

Wouldn't you think the place would have already been raked for ANY evidence supporting the claim?

There is no evidence. It didn't happen...

Haran · 07-06-2006, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaxxat

Wouldn't you think the place would have already been raked for ANY evidence supporting the claim?

No. I just got back from Israel, and I will tell you that one of the things that surprised me the most is how many places all over the country of Israel have not been excavated. Name an ancient place you're familiar with, and I'll almost bet that there are large portions of it that have not yet been excavated. I saw tell after tell alongside the roads that looked never to have been excavated. And I saw popular tells that had a few trenches here and there. It made me realize how much there is to discover still!

Again, first, I do not believe scholars are confident in their identification of Kadesh Barnea. Even so, I do not believe the site has been excavated extensively.

Quote:

There is no evidence. It didn't happen...

Respectfully, I do not agree.

Haran · 07-06-2006, 12:31 PM

Here is something that bothers me very much about the Bible supposedly being an invention of Josiah or those about him.

To put this into perspective, I believe that this means that ALL of the following books (remember they were separate books/scrolls) would have been fictional accounts invented in the time of Josiah:

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 Samuel
2 Samuel
1 Kings
2 Kings (most of this)
1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles (most of this)
...possibly portions of others...

Two questions:

Doesn't this seem like an awfully large and varied set of books to have "invented"??

Why create two separate/parallel accounts of the same thing in many cases but especially in 1/2Kings & 1/2Chronicles??

These theories just don't make any sense to me...please feel free to elaborate. Perhaps I have just always misunderstood something about these seemingly absurd theories.

madmax2976 · 07-06-2006, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

God.

God sets the standards, not us. What you perceive to be "right" may not be so. If you try to apply your standards to God, you are simply creating your own God and putting him a confining box of your own standards.

And God, assuming such a being exists, simply attempts to put me in a confining box of its own standards (dependent on the "God" being referred to). The question then remains as to why God's standard should be considered superior to our own. Does it's supposed might make it right?

Sven · 07-06-2006, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

These theories just don't make any sense to me...please feel free to elaborate. Perhaps I have just always misunderstood something about these seemingly absurd theories.

You might want to try actually reading Finkelstein and Silverman. It's difficult to explain an entire book in just a few post.

Kosh · 07-06-2006, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sven

You might want to try actually reading Finkelstein and Silverman. It's difficult to explain an entire book in just a few post.

But Strawmen can be built and torched in just minutes!

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07-06-2006, 12:31 PM	#37
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	Here is something that bothers me very much about the Bible supposedly being an invention of Josiah or those about him. To put this into perspective, I believe that this means that ALL of the following books (remember they were separate books/scrolls) would have been fictional accounts invented in the time of Josiah: Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy Joshua Judges Ruth 1 Samuel 2 Samuel 1 Kings 2 Kings (most of this) 1 Chronicles 2 Chronicles (most of this) ...possibly portions of others... Two questions: Doesn't this seem like an awfully large and varied set of books to have "invented"?? Why create two separate/parallel accounts of the same thing in many cases but especially in 1/2Kings & 1/2Chronicles?? These theories just don't make any sense to me...please feel free to elaborate. Perhaps I have just always misunderstood something about these seemingly absurd theories.

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