Blui

Sorry i didnt see this thread being replied too, my reply will be wordy so ill try ot break it down.

Quran and Hadith QUran is obviously, the religious text, and in Islam, contains revelations by Muhammad given by Allah (or by his angels).
Now, despite what the QUran itself claims, it doesnt always make sense, there are many verses that are either literally contradictory to others, or its spirit contradicts others, for example, 'let no compulsion within religion' is contradicted by the fact that later on, it prescribes non-Muslims to pay a special tax (Jews and Christians).

This requires an explanation, where from? the Hadiths, the Hadiths are considered by Muslims to be early tales by early Muslims (like AIsha, wife of Muhammad, and his close friends) on various events in Muhammad and Islamic history, it contains many practices based on Islamic beliefs that Muslims must adhere to.

For example, one tale relates that Muhammad said since women are deficient in intelligence, if you need a witness, you need 2 female witnesses to every male witness, this corresponds to a Quranic verse.

There are also various other things, like explaining the real meaning, how to practice, and 'context' ie situation in which a verse arose from.

Tafsir
A Tafsir is a commentary on the Quran explaining it, it is done by an authorative Islamic figure, and so is an authorative interpretation of the Quran, ie. it is how you should believe it and practice it, these people in fact get their interpretation by consulting the Hadith (and various other material but that is the main one).

I will provide the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir because its readily available in front of me now.

Ok, the reason for the required 4 male witnesses to a woman claiming she was raped (she must provide them).

Firstly, we must recognise that sex outside of marriage (sex when you are not married) is a sin (zina) as well as sex with someone you are not married to.

They carry the penalty of 100 lashes, and for adultery, in some cases, stoning.

Quran
24:2 The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.

Although it speaks of 'adulterer' it also includes sex for those who are not married, the same punishment.

Tafsir on 24:2
(The Zaniyah and the Zani, flog each of them with a hundred stripes.) This honorable Ayah contains the ruling on the law of retaliation for the person who commits illegal sex, and details of the punishment. Such a person will either be unmarried, meaning that he has never been married, or he will be married, meaning that he has had intercourse within the bounds of a lawful marriage, and he is free, adult and of sound mind. As for the virgin who is unwedded, the prescribed punishment is one hundred stripes, as stated in this Ayah. In addition to this he is to be banished from his homeland for one year, as was recorded in the Two Sahihs from Abu Hurayrah and Zayd bin Khalid Al-Juhani in the Hadith about the two bedouins who came to the Messenger of Allah"


Now.

Quran
24:4 And those who accuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony - They indeed are evil-doers -

Note that this refers to those who accuse women, however, in Islam, this has been expanded to also work in the opposite case, those who accuse men (ie women claiming rape).

Tafsir
This Ayah states the prescribed punishment for making false accusations against chaste women, i.e., those who are free, adult and chaste. If the person who is falsely accused is a man, the same punishment of flogging also applies

True.

The Tafsir
This Ayah offers a way out for husbands. If a husband has accused his wife but cannot come up with proof, he can swear the Li`an (the oath of condemnation) as Allah commanded. This means that he brings her before the Imam and states what he is accusing her of. The ruler then asks him to swear four times by Allah in front of four witnesses
(that he is one of those who speak the truth) in his accusation of her adultery.
(And the fifth; the invoking of the curse of Allah on him if he be of those who tell a lie.) If he says that, then she is divorced from him by the very act of this Li`an; she is forever forbidden for him and he must give her Mahr to her. The punishment for Zina should be carried out on her, and nothing can prevent the punishment except if she also swears the oath of condemnation (Li`an) and swears by Allah four times that he is one of those who lied, i.e., in what he is accusing her of;

Bobinius

Right, that is indeed idiotic. It's some sort of swearing contest. I thought about giving it this interpretation (if you follow plain English), but it seemed too childish. And not connected with the 4 witnesses theory presented previously.

post tenebras lux

But it is: just that the 'four witnesses' are all Allah.

Clivedurdle

I understand Iran has another get out clause for extra marital sex - you are allowed a temporary marriage for the evening or whatever!

Anyone know anything about this and is it an example of sharia law being adapted? How does the no innovation clause kick in - surely any interpretation or haddith is an innovation?

premjan

The Shiites permit innovative interpretations whereas the Sunnis have fixed the jurisprudence schools in the distant past for the most part.

Glimmung

Its called mutah marriage. Its a marriage for a fixed period of time in exchange for a predecided amount of money. At the end of the period, you are free to walk away or renegotiate the marriage. Sunnis have something similar, called misyar marriage. The major difference is the length is not fixed there. Though again, it is not intended to be permanent.

-G

post tenebras lux

IIRIC, Mohammed (puhug - and assuming he existed) allowed some of his fighters to engage in this practice in the beginning, so some claim that it's not an innovation.

Mind you, at a later date he didn't allow it. So - as ever - a muslim can argue it either way.

Clivedurdle

Instead or referring back to the koran all the time - which does give it more respect than it deserves by assuming it is in some way angel produced (they hadn't invented production lines - the Vikings did that) could we ask what pre existing thinking led to this? In note the Judaic links, but are there not more likely to be strong Zoroastrian and Persian legal codes behind this?

premjan

What is 'puhug'?

post tenebras lux

Not as polite as 'pbuh'.