spamandham

What reason? Do they know something we don't?

rlogan

No.

I define Jews as Romans.

Therefore Christianity is Roman origin.

(Please ignore - just a tit for tat)

Shesh -

There are thousands of terms that existed centuries before, say 100 CE.

But the existence of those terms does not demonstrate a religion based upon them.

Josephus has a chapter on "Sects of the Jews". Not one word on any Christ group.

So why?

It isn't until Pliny in 112 writes Trajan and says there are people singing hymns to a Christ. He doesn't know anything about this cult. Does not tie it in to Judaism, as a branch of the Jews. He lumps it in with Secret Societies.

The Jews are not a secret society.

gentleexit

But who read the Septuagint? Romans? Which Romans? The Septuagint was for Jews (Romans in a broad sense ok, as in part of the empire but otherwise ...). Diaspora Jews. Write in terms of its logic and you are writing for them.

A story for a broader audience would explicitly take in predictions from Virgil etc ala Constantine's much later "oration to the assembly of saints".

Best argument against Roman origin is the substance of early Christian texts. Jews writing for Jews. No one else.

Sheshbazzar

Why would Josephus write anything about any christ group, when the entire Greek speaking Jewish world, including himself, was within that group?
There would have been nothing notable or exceptional to write about.
Just his fellow Jews wrangling over when The Promised One would come, with some claiming that he had already came, and was this one, that one, or another.
Nothing special to report there, just his fellow Jews arguing and acting like Jews as a group always do.


I do not believe that Pliny was refering to the "christ" of Judaisim, or even to a cult that was in any way connected with Judiasim.
Or that these people were even singing hymns to the "Christ" of the Jewish religion, but something else entirely

The word "christos" and the the idea of the Jews having a expectation of a Christos that would some day deliver them had been around for hundreds of years, and the Jews had been talking about it for centuries everywhere they went.
Pliny was a very educated man and would have been well acquainted with the word christos, but he did not write christos -"christ", he wrote "Chrestus" acknowledging it was connected to an obscure gentile religious cult.
"Chrestus" in the Greek has the meaning of "good", whereas "christos" means "anointed", and Pliny would certainly have known the difference.

We all get fed a line, when Christian Apologists get away so easily with putting a word in Pliny's writing, that Pliny DID NOT write.

I believe that the "Chrest-ians" Pliny was dealing with were members of the pagan Gentile "Good Shepherd" cults, of which much of its teachings and its "mysteries" ("washed in the blood" , "This is my body...this is my blood") were absorbed by the latter church and integrated into the Gospels and church traditions and practices.

dog-on

Probably the same reason that some Christians, today, might have read the Koran or the Veddas, or Hustler, I suppose...

Which early Christian text would you like to assume is a Jew writing for Jews?

Clivedurdle

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/melange.html



Good Shepherd Christ

4th century AD Rome



Good Shepherd Apollo

6th century BC Athens

Sheshbazzar

Thanks Clive.
The Gospels substitute καλός "kalos" for its synonym "chrestos", as a literary device to distance J from that very well known -other- "Good Shepherd",
but a rip off is a rip off, no matter what the copy-cat manufactuers might slyly call it.

Kind of like when the Chinese build shoddy rip-off automobile replacement parts and use similar appearing logos and packaging;
"Genuine Generous Motors Parts" , "GMG Parts", "Mopart" et al.

caveat emptor, Buyer Beware

No Robots

Wrong. You can read the Latin text here. It is true that it was a common mistake to write "Chrestus" for Christus and "Chrestiani" for Christiani, but this does not happen with Pliny.

No Robots

Yes, they are able to recognize the NT as Jewish literature, something Gentiles have been remarkably incapable of doing.

Sheshbazzar

Thanks for the link, and so chrestus of you to mention that. I don't believe that it was a common mistake, the mistake reflects the evidence of the contemporary existence of -something else-, a heathen and wholly gentile Chrestani "Good Shepherd" cult, which originally had nothing to do with Jewish messianism.

"No manuscripts survive", and thus where does your "Letter of Pliny" come from?
Ah, the most trustworthy resource on earth.
I don't buy what they are peddeling.