Freethought & Rationalism Archive

His Noodly Appendage · 02-21-2006, 05:38 AM

I've never been clear on this.

Are all the people who ever died just lying there in stasis awaiting judgement day, or have they been shipped off to heaven/hell yet? If they're not waiting, what happens when the final trump of doom is sounded? Is Judgement Day just for the people left over?

If not, what about the saints? Where do they figure in all this? How does someone lying there inert and mouldering awaiting reactivation at the other end of time help catholics find their lost bicycles? Are they going to answer all the prayers retroactively once they've been let in?

Or do saints get an early-entry backstage pass? Does this only happen after the catholic church canonises them? (if not, does that mean canonisation is a perception rather than a decision?) What about ex-saints, such as Saint George? Did he get thrown back in the frezer?

I'm also wondering about people's dead loved ones supposedly looking on from heaven. Is that a pretty lie? Is talking to gravestones as stupid as it looks? Isn't it blasphemous, being an assumption contrary to doctrine? If the bible says you're dead until judgement day, isn't addressing the dead a refutation of that statement?

LoneReaction · 02-21-2006, 05:50 AM

Wow..I also wonder how the hell do people know if a dead person is to be a saint. Heaven sends the news?

His Noodly Appendage · 02-21-2006, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalnet

* Now talking in #christian
<jbc> heyas

<jbc> so, educate me. For the flavours of christianity that support saints, what's doctrine on judgement day? Are the saints in heaven already, or do they have to wait in line with everyone else? If the latter, what's the perceived good of praying/whatever to them, if they're inert and awaiting reactivation?
<Ephesians> reactivation?
<jbc> aren't you supposed to be... out of action... until JD?
<today_only> they do not need reactivation, they have everready batteries in them
<Ephesians> Who?
<jbc> Ephesians: if I understand correctly, you die, and the next thing you know, you're in the Longest Queue In The Universe, awaiting your turn for judgement. (that is to say, you're not aware of the intervening time between your death and armageddon/etc)
<Ephesians> go straight to heaven
<jbc> so, what's Judgement Day all about, then?
<PeaceMakr> jbc, get a bible and read it, no excuse
<today_only> the robots taking over the world, didn't you see the movie
<jbc> I've heard conflicting interpretations
<Ephesians> i think when jesus comes back to earth
<jbc> so, people get into heaven/hell *before* judgement?
<Ephesians> no and then terminator comes and turns everyone into terminators
<fr0d0> i like the robots thing *nodz*
<Ephesians> :P
<Ephesians> yes
<jbc> renders the whole judging thing a bit moot then, doesn't it?
<Ephesians> ?
<jbc> Do you get thrown out again if you get judged unworthy after all?
<Ephesians> no
<jbc> (hm. What if you were in hell instead?)
<jbc> so, who gets judged?
<HolyBible> Revelation 20:12 · And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. · niv ·
<Ephesians> its hades
* psyguy (THRILL@pm1s237.maitland.heartland.net) has joined #christian
<psyguy> good morning brothers and sisters in Christ
<PeaceMakr> hi psyguy
<jbc> well, that sounds fairly unequivocal - everyone gets judged at once. But where were the dead before judgement?
<Ephesians> ?
<Ephesians> in heaven or hell
<PeaceMakr> psyguy, can you handle mr jbc please?
<psyguy> how so?
<jbc> Ephesians: if you're already in heaven/hell before judgement, and you won't get kicked out post-judgement, what's the importance of said judgement?
<psyguy> what is the quetion jbc
<Ephesians> it is not that kind of judgemewnt
<psyguy> understand Judgement to be proclimation of judgement
<psyguy> it is the sentencing part
<psyguy> belivers are judged by the fact they have accepted Jesus as Lord, unbelievers that they have not
<jbc> well there you go. If you get sentenced at judgement day, it would seem weird that you'd *already* be in heaven or hell before that, as Ephesians just claimed
<psyguy> and sentencing is handed down on the "day of judgement
<jbc> I'd always thought that doctrine stated that you remained dead-and-inert until said day
<PeaceMakr> jbc, your stance from birth is guilty as charged, your life is where you change that
<jbc> PeaceMakr: irrelevant
<psyguy> because the judgement has already been made, by us in fact
<PeaceMakr> lol
<psyguy> we have alredy chosen where we want to spend eternity
<jbc> someone run me through the chronology here. It's getting increasingly muddled.
<psyguy> exactly PeaceMakr
<psyguy> jbc, you are not a christian?
<jbc> If some random person does today, and judgement day happens 100 years from now, what, if anything does that person experience for the next 100 years?>
<psyguy> jbc, are you a christian?
<jbc> Is it their afterlife-of-choice, or is it stasis?
<jbc> no, I'm not - but I'm curious.
<psyguy> then you can never hope to understand the things of God, so I am wasting yours and my time trying to explain them to you
<jbc> oh come on. Cop out!
<jbc> It's a simple enough question
<psyguy> not at all, scripturte tells us that a person that does not know God will never understand God
<psyguy> so conversation closed as far as I am concerned, you have been given the correct answer, if you can not accept it, thats your problem
<jbc> where does it say "don't answer simple questions about your faith:?
<psyguy> where does it say to answer them?
<jbc> um, I haven't been given a consistent answer
<jbc> psyguy: common courtesy?
<psyguy> um, because you are a skeptic
<psyguy> a skeptic will never see the answer
<psyguy> I am not courtious to skeptics
<psyguy> and don't need to be
<jbc> Charming.

Who was it that wanted to know why christians bug the shit out of me, again?

Xulfer Cirtsag · 02-21-2006, 06:31 AM

We'll make this simple.

There is no heaven, so no, they aren't in heaven. They've been wormfood. I suppose maybe each and every one of us might have a little bit of digested saint in us.

His Noodly Appendage · 02-21-2006, 06:40 AM

Congratulations. You've just hit one of my rant buttons.

I KNOW THIS, YOU <EDITED>, I'M A <EDITED> ATHEIST, AND YOU <EDITED> KNOW IT.

Is it *really* so hard to realise that the question is posed in the context of christianity? Do I really have to put a fucking "This post only applies to theists" disclaimer on every single inconsistency I pose as a question to invite reasoning on the subject?

Why do people keep doing this?

GRRRRR.

Xulfer Cirtsag · 02-21-2006, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by His Noodly Appendage

Congratulations. You've just hit one of my rant buttons.

I KNOW THIS, YOU <EDITED>, I'M A <EDITED> ATHEIST, AND YOU <EDITED> KNOW IT.

Is it *really* so hard to realise that the question is posed in the context of christianity? Do I really have to put a fucking "This post only applies to theists" disclaimer on every single inconsistency I pose as a question to invite reasoning on the subject?

Why do people keep doing this?

GRRRRR.

Eh, why not? I'm well aware of the inconsistencies, as you are. But yet I don't feel it is completely useless to answer it from the atheistic viewpoint so any less-than-aware theists can see the atheistic viewpoint more explicity stated rather than deducing by induction.

My apologies anyhow.

Spitfire · 02-21-2006, 07:05 AM

The souls of the saints are already in Heaven, they have already experienced what is known as the Particular Judgement, which every soul undergoes as an individual. Later will come the General Judgment, in which everyone who has ever died, whether they are in Heaven or in Hell, will be reunited with their body.

His Noodly Appendage · 02-21-2006, 07:07 AM

Won't that get a bit smelly?

His Noodly Appendage · 02-21-2006, 07:08 AM

NP, xulfer... sowwy. I was still a bit pissed off, and I reacted.

ziffel · 02-21-2006, 02:13 PM

HNA, that IRC log was a really fun read, thanks for that. I nearly fell out of my chair at this part:

"<psyguy> then you can never hope to understand the things of God, so I am wasting yours and my time trying to explain them to you"

I think that's easy enough to translate: "if you don't just blindly believe, we can never convince you, so why try?"

"<psyguy> not at all, scripture tells us that a person that does not know God will never understand God, so conversation closed..."

wow. that doesn't even make sense. So, uh, don't ask us any tough questions, we'll just get mad and slam the door on you. got it. Btw, scripture doesn't say that at all. Aren't all non-Christians in the realm of "not knowing God", and if so, what's the point of evangelizing to them, if they can never understand God?

Now I'll try to answer your question from the Christian perspective, as I understood it:

Quote:

Are all the people who ever died just lying there in stasis awaiting judgement day, or have they been shipped off to heaven/hell yet? If they're not waiting, what happens when the final trump of doom is sounded? Is Judgement Day just for the people left over?

Coming from a protestant/baptist/&non-denom background:

What I was always taught was that the saved dead immediately go to heaven. The oft-quoted scripture is Paul's words "to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor, 5:8)

The unsaved go to hell. But not the "lake of fire", yet.

The judgement, we were often told, was basically, to make things official. The saved would be judged innocent, due to the acceptance of the blood of christ as payment for their sins, however, they would still be judged for their works as a Christian. This would result in varying degrees of rewards. The more good works you did, the better the reward. Some sects even go into in-depth (deriving here and there from various passages) to say that God's new earth government would be set up, with Jesus as king, but he for some reason would need helpers throughout the world to govern things. The really good folks will get these positions as top government officials (I'm not making this up, I swear).

Back to the judgement, the unsaved, that includes you dear atheist reader, will be judged as sinful scum who blatantly rejected oh-so-clear and present path to easy salvation, and promptly tossed into a lake of fire, to burn in teeth-knashing torment, for ever and ever, amen. hallelujah, and good riddance.

I can't believe i that actually bought into all this shit as an adult.

As for saints, i don't know about Catholism, sorry.

Quote:

I'm also wondering about people's dead loved ones supposedly looking on from heaven. Is that a pretty lie? Is talking to gravestones as stupid as it looks? Isn't it blasphemous, being an assumption contrary to doctrine? If the bible says you're dead until judgement day, isn't addressing the dead a refutation of that statement?

What i was taught is that the dearly departed most assuredly are NOT looking down at us from heaven. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I know there's a scripture that states this. Something about a barrier of communication between them and us, until we get there.

02-21-2006, 05:38 AM	#1
His Noodly Appendage Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 6,513	Are the saints in heaven? I've never been clear on this. Are all the people who ever died just lying there in stasis awaiting judgement day, or have they been shipped off to heaven/hell yet? If they're not waiting, what happens when the final trump of doom is sounded? Is Judgement Day just for the people left over? If not, what about the saints? Where do they figure in all this? How does someone lying there inert and mouldering awaiting reactivation at the other end of time help catholics find their lost bicycles? Are they going to answer all the prayers retroactively once they've been let in? Or do saints get an early-entry backstage pass? Does this only happen after the catholic church canonises them? (if not, does that mean canonisation is a perception rather than a decision?) What about ex-saints, such as Saint George? Did he get thrown back in the frezer? I'm also wondering about people's dead loved ones supposedly looking on from heaven. Is that a pretty lie? Is talking to gravestones as stupid as it looks? Isn't it blasphemous, being an assumption contrary to doctrine? If the bible says you're dead until judgement day, isn't addressing the dead a refutation of that statement?

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02-21-2006, 05:50 AM	#2
LoneReaction Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Singapore Posts: 563	Wow..I also wonder how the hell do people know if a dead person is to be a saint. Heaven sends the news?

02-21-2006, 06:31 AM	#4
Xulfer Cirtsag Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: no, not there, try again Posts: 1,752	We'll make this simple. There is no heaven, so no, they aren't in heaven. They've been wormfood. I suppose maybe each and every one of us might have a little bit of digested saint in us.

02-21-2006, 06:40 AM	#5
His Noodly Appendage Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 6,513	Congratulations. You've just hit one of my rant buttons. I KNOW THIS, YOU <EDITED>, I'M A <EDITED> ATHEIST, AND YOU <EDITED> KNOW IT. Is it really so hard to realise that the question is posed in the context of christianity? Do I really have to put a fucking "This post only applies to theists" disclaimer on every single inconsistency I pose as a question to invite reasoning on the subject? Why do people keep doing this? GRRRRR.

02-21-2006, 07:05 AM	#7
Spitfire Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: The belly of the beast. Posts: 765	The souls of the saints are already in Heaven, they have already experienced what is known as the Particular Judgement, which every soul undergoes as an individual. Later will come the General Judgment, in which everyone who has ever died, whether they are in Heaven or in Hell, will be reunited with their body.

02-21-2006, 07:07 AM	#8
His Noodly Appendage Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 6,513	Won't that get a bit smelly?

02-21-2006, 07:08 AM	#9
His Noodly Appendage Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 6,513	NP, xulfer... sowwy. I was still a bit pissed off, and I reacted.

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