John Kesler

Would you agree that this promise that the disciples--which included Judas Iscariot--would sit on thrones and judge Israel, is contradictory to John 6:64, which claims that Jesus knew all along that Judas, whom Jesus called "a devil" (v:70), would betray him? See also John 13:11.

Ben C Smith

Yes. They are, at the very least, in tension.

Ben.

spamandham

- the obsession with fish. This is symbolism for Pisces. For example, the story in Matthew about the 153 fish is a story straight out of Pythagoreanism.

- the symbolism of the cross comes directly from pagan tradition, not from Jewish tradition

- much of the 'wisdom' Jesus teaches is pagan stoicism

- the story of lazarus is a pagan story

People have written numerous books on this subject, so I don't really see the need to provide an exhaustive list.

Amaleq13

Could you elaborate on this, please?

spamandham

It's an ancient solar symbol. The best known version, aside from the christian cross, is probably the Egyptian ankh, followed by the swastika (long before the nazi's absconded it) but there are dozens of variations of it pre-dating Christianity, and in wide usage in 1st century geece among pagans.

Amaleq13

Symbolizing what, exactly?

I'm trying to understand the connection between the pagan symbolism and Christian symbolism. What you've offered hear doesn't appear to create any such link.

spamandham

I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm simply offering up another perspective. If you care to research it, you will, and you will have no problem at all finding what you are looking for. If your interest is in scoring debate points, I'm happy to just concede right now and say "you win".

John Kesler

I don't understand why you again claim that the story of 153 fish is in Matthew, since the following exchange took place on 4-5-07:

Also, how did your knowledge of this subject progress from "so I've heard, I'm no expert" to "People have written numerous books on this subject, so I don't really see the need to provide an exhaustive list" in the span of a month?

Are you denying that first-century Romans crucified people? If Jesus really was killed on a cross, then the "symbolism of the cross" was rooted in an actual event, so there is no need to posit "pagan tradition."

I've seen this claim made by Acharya S, but where is the proof from ancient sources?

aupmanyav

The mesopotamians had a dodecimal system prior to the Indian decimal system, 12 hours for a day, 12 months in a year, of course 12 zodiac signs. That may also be a factor.

Ben C Smith

I agree this is a possible connection with paganism. But what does it have to do with the 12 disciples?

Even if you are correct (and I am by no means conceding the point), what does this have to do with the 12 disciples? Ditto the rest of your examples. I provided you with a direct link between the 12 disciples and the 12 tribes of Israel and asked for a direct link between the 12 disciples and something pagan. You have provided me with possible links between other Christian ideas and paganism. If that was your point all along, that Christianity in some of its particulars mirrors paganism, well shoot, I would have conceded that point right from the start.

The topic at hand, and straight from the title of the OP, was the 12 disciples. Not the 153 fish.

Ben.