Chris Weimer

That Gehenna is not found in the OT. Quite clearly it is. In both Hebrew and LXX.

Chili

If "the worm dieth not" is an image let me suggest that it makes reference to 'victory over sin' . . . or not, because the serpent has not been defeated. The children of Israel were in such a place where they were torn in the 'saved sinner' complex and therefore wandered and died nonetheless.

Michael is the right hand angel of Mary (the wo-man) who alone can defeat the serpent wherefore we say "through Mary to Jesus" because the place "where the worm dieth" not was popular in the OT . . . and again is popular in the NT.

judge

Neither Craig evans nor myself claims that gehenna is not found in the old testament.
Craig evans notes that in the targum of Isaiah gehenna appears in Isaiah 66.

Chris Weimer

You might want to take a refresher course on what exactly a targum is and when they were written. I think you may be surprised.

spin

What goes? Hinnom is one of the valleys in Jerusalem. It's often called the valley gy) of the son of Hinnom, as well as just the valley of Hinnom, gy-hnm Josh 15:8, which in turn leads to the Aramaic, ghn), gehenna. This was the place where tradition tells us there was a tophet for human sacrifice to a Canaanite god, Moloch...


spin

Chris Weimer

Thanks spin but this was irrelevant to the debate. I will profess ignorance, judge, in case you think I'm acting superior in this case, over the dating of the Aramaic targum. What solid evidence do you have?

judge

Chris you may be mis-reading my post. Have another look.

I said

Notice I wrote may. I didn't say it did.
As we don't know exactly when the targum was written we don't know for sure.
But as Craig Evans suggests many of jesus saying do reflect the targums we have and not the LXX of the Hebrew we have.

Therefore it may be that Jesus words on the gehenna and the "worm that dieth not" are quoting to an aramaic targum.

The entire NT usage of "gehenna' may relect this usage in the targum and its context.

Otherwise where did it spring from? Thin air?

Chris Weimer

This is quite possible, considering the gospels were based around an area where Aramaic was primary - I'd reckon most sayings of Jesus are older than the narrative around it. However, this does not suggest that the gospels themselves were written in Aramaic. Another -1 for you.

Steven Carr

David Wood here http://www.answeringinfidels.com/content/view/63/42/ has a very interesting article about how ancient peoples, brought up in the monotheistic Ancient Near eastern culture thought of Heaven

' The Qur’an also implies that the lowest heaven (the sky) is some sort of tangible substance that would fall on us if God didn’t hold it up'

spin

I'd love to see you demonstrate that consideration.


spin