Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doctor X · 11-01-2003, 12:56 PM

When I am less tired. . . .

The basic source is Frank Moore Cross' Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel. From this you can learn that YHWH is the "causitive imperfect of the Proto-Hebrew-Canaanite verb 'to be'" . . . of course. . . .

Another good source . . . but a bit hard to find unfortunately . . . is The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms, Diana Vikander Edelman (Editor). This covers some of the various deity names used in the OT--which are more than El, Elohim, and YHWH--and even some iconography. It also gives a bit on evidence of YHWH's possible consort Asherah.

For more specifics, I will have to get back to you . . . I am away from my library.

--J.D.

Ebonmuse · 11-01-2003, 12:56 PM

Quote:

If Balaam was a real person, what about Balak, Moses, Joshua and all of the other persons named in the Biblical narrative? They must have been real as well, and the events described authentic.

So if I find historical attestation of the existence of Nietzsche, does that mean everything he said is correct?

slaveofChrist · 11-01-2003, 01:15 PM

Quote:

If Balaam was a real person, what about Balak, Moses, Joshua and all of the other persons named in the Biblical narrative? They must have been real as well, and the events described authentic.

For the last time-

Once again, I do not agree with this portion of the article. I find it unfortunate that this flawed logic was incorporated in what appears to me to be a generally well written article.

So there is no reason to bring that up again

Quote:

Another good source . . . but a bit hard to find unfortunately . . . is The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms, Diana Vikander Edelman (Editor). This covers some of the various deity names used in the OT--which are more than El, Elohim, and YHWH--and even some iconography. It also gives a bit on evidence of YHWH's possible consort Asherah.

I have not looked into this a great deal but I know that many of Yahweh's actions and attributes are VERY uncharacteristic of ANE (ancient near Eastern) gods of the day. For example, in the creation account Yahweh's actions and attributes are very uncharacteristic:

U]Yahweh vs. ANE gods[/U]

Self existent vs. born from eternal matter

His existence is not proved or asserted but assumed vs. theogony in the ANE

Apart from His creation vs. divinized natural foces

Unopposed sovereign creator vs. the gods must fight and vanquish their foes before they can create

Yahweh's method of creation vs. that of the ANE gods

By fiat and unopposed action vs. mostly by birth and battle

No preexistent matter vs. eternal matter

The sequence of days vs. no anological treatment

The creation of man is the goal vs. The creation of man is an afterthought

As you can see it is very clear that the creation account and the nature of Yahweh are VERY different from the religions of the day.

As for the names of God, yes, there are many, but they are all clearly to describe different attributes. Adonai, Jehova Jireh, etc.

Check out this link for good information:
http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/sb101/page5.html

Have a good day, I'm off to change the oil in my jeep

Doctor X · 11-01-2003, 05:43 PM

slaveofChrist:

Quote:

I have not looked into this a great deal but I know that many of Yahweh's actions and attributes are VERY uncharacteristic of ANE (ancient near Eastern) gods of the day. For example, in the creation account Yahweh's actions and attributes are very uncharacteristic:

Au contraire, mon ami. . . . [He knows no French!--Ed.]

I have returned to the library, poured a libation, and:

YHWH and El:

Quote:

Both in Canaan and in Mesopotamia the epithets of the gods describe them, male and female, as creators of heaven and earth, father or creatress of all creatures, gods and men, formers or progenitors of the world.
. . . .
Our evidence also points strongly to the conclusion that yahwê is a shortened form of a sentence name taken from a cultic formula.
. . . .
We must ask finally if the phrase du yahwi saba'ôt, "He who creates the heavenly armies" is not in origin an epithet of 'El, and if the primitive formula is not better reconstructed in the pattern 'el zu yahwi (sab'ot) [God who creates the heavenly armies.--Ed.]. . . .
. . . .
If Yahweh is recognized as originally a cultic ame of 'El, perhaps the epithet of 'El as patron deity of the Midiaite League in the south, a number of problems in the history of Israel can be solved.
. . . .
The popularity of the cult of 'El in the Semitic community in Sinai, the eastern delta of Egypt, and Seir gives some plausibility to the notion that Yahweh was an 'El figure.
. . . .
The early cultic establishment of Yahweh and its appurtenances--the Tabernacle, its structure of qerasim, its curtains embroidered with cerubim and its cherubim throne, and its proportions according to the pattern (tabnit) of the cosmic shrine--all reflect Canaanite models, and specifically the Tent of 'El and his cherubim throne.

YHWH and Baal:

Quote:

Yahweh also owes a dept to the myths of Ba'l. In the earliest poetic sources the language depicting Yahweh as divine warior manifest is borrowed almost directly from Canaanite descriptions of the theophany of Ba'l as storm god.

Cross goes into detailed comparisons of YHWH texts and Baal texts.

Creation or "Cut":

There are a number of creation myths in the Pentateuch--one of my favorites recapitulates a "god versus a sea monster" which has parallels to Baal as well as Marduk versus Tiamat. The "first myth"--the Priestly account which opens Genesis--the verb is more appropriately translated as "cut" as in "separate" the sky from the ground--a rather old motif actually. On the contrary to your claim, both the Priestly and YHWHistic creation myths have parellels in "other people's myths."

--J.D.

Reference:

Frank Moore Cross. Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1973.

[Edited to redact to the Textus Recepticus.--Ed.]

slaveofChrist · 11-01-2003, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Yahweh also owes a dept to the myths of Ba'l. In the earliest poetic sources the language depicting Yahweh as divine warior manifest is borrowed almost directly from Canaanite descriptions of the theophany of Ba'l as storm god.

Can you please reference the passage(s) that depict Yahweh as a divine warrior? Even if He is depicted that way, I find this evidence as anything but convincing.

Quote:

The "first myth"--the Priestly account which opens Genesis--the verb is more appropriately translated as "cut" as in "separate" the sky from the ground--a rather old motif actually. On the contrary to your claim, both the Priestly and YHWHistic creation myths have parellels in "other people's myths."

It is clear in Genesis that Yahweh separated the light from the darkness, the waters and the lands, etc. but the creation account makes it very clear that God created from nothing. "let there be light, and there was light..."

There are also aspects of the creation account that are deliberately non-mythical (along with the other non mythical features listed in my previous post to which you have not responded yet):

The meaning of bara' (Hebrew word)
1. Only God is the subject
2. Product of creation is mentioned not the material from which God created

The selective use of bara'
1. The creation of the universe
2. The creation of sea monsters
3. The creation of man (3x)

The account of the 4th day
1. The sun and the moon are called light holders, as opposed to being divinized like other ANE accounts.
2. The sun and moon are neither named or blessed like other parts of creation
3. The deliberate lack of naming almost appears awkward.

All that was taken from the research of Dr. Steven Boyd, a Hebrew and ANE expert.
Some of his credentials:
B.S., M.S., Drexel University
Th.M., Dallas Theological Seminary
M.Phil., Ph.D., Hebrew Union College--Jewish Institute of Religion
Doctoral Studies, Dropsie College

I think it is very clear from that that Yahweh is different from other gods of that time period.

Doctor X · 11-01-2003, 06:24 PM

slaveofChrist:

Quote:

Can you please reference the passage(s) that depict Yahweh as a divine warrior? Even if He is depicted that way, I find this evidence as anything but convincing.

Interesting request, even if the evidence exists you will discount it?

Cross devotes his fifth chapter of his book to "The Divine Warrior." Skimming through it:

Psalm 24:7-10
Num 10:35
Psalm 68:18
"Song of the Sea"--Exod 15:1b-18

and there are many more. You would do well to consult Cross' book for the specific comparisons with the Baal myths.

Quote:

It is clear in Genesis that Yahweh separated the light from the darkness, . . .

Save it is not YHWH . . . it is El.

Quote:

. . . but the creation account makes it very clear that God created from nothing. "let there be light, and there was light..."

No, for the earth and the waters of the deep preexisted.

Quote:

There are also aspects of the creation account that are deliberately non-mythical.

Actually, no. What you list occurs in other creation myths as well.

Quote:

All that was taken from the research of Dr. Steven Boyd, a Hebrew and ANE expert.

Ipse dixit--methinks if one wishes to "trust authority" I would trust the authority of Cross as well as other modern scholars. I would trust what the text actually states rather than what he tries to make them say. Given what you have quoted from him, he appears to lack understanding of the authorship of Genesis, and familiarity with creation myths detailed in the venerable ANET.

Quote:

I think it is very clear from that that Yahweh is different from other gods of that time period.

Other than it is not YHWH but El who is involved in the P creation?

--J.D.

Toto · 11-01-2003, 07:01 PM

Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel

I can't pinpoint Steven Boyd. There is a Steven Boyd at
The Masters College who might or might not have been at Multnomah or might be the same Steven Boyd who produced a video for the Creation Science Association entitled "Fingerpainting of God: Genesis 1 Hebrew text."

Doctor X · 11-01-2003, 11:20 PM

Toto:

[Hijack Mode: Engaged--Ed.]

Can you "sticky" or place in the Recommended Reading the generic format for linking to Amazon so II can get their credit? Sometimes on a slower connection it is hard to find the PM you sent on it and some past post on it.

If you want, I can make this a general request on the Complaint/Suggestion section.

[Hijack Mode: Disengaged--Ed.]

Folks, Cross' book is worth the investment, I return to it many times.

--J.D.

Wayne P · 11-02-2003, 05:53 AM

slaveofchrist wrote

Quote:

God dealt directly with Balaam and Balaam directly attacked God's chosen people.

I'll agree with the first part of this because the text says so, but where is the text in the old testament that says Balaam attacked, directly or not, the Israelites? Isn't the whole point of the story that he was called to curse them and ended up blessing them? How is blessing them attacking them?

Secondly, further into the discussion slaveofchrist says:

Quote:

It is very clear from the Biblical account that Balaam did not worship Yahweh and I dont think that anyone has made that claim by any means.

And yet throughout the story Balaam is always saying "the Lord MY God" said such and such. If Balaam acknowledges Yahweh as his God how is that not worshipping him? Were not all the altars set up at Balaam's command and does he reference any other Gods for these altars?

The only reason I ask these things is because I have heard Christians before make both these claims, Farrell Till had a long debate on the Balaam issue over on II Errancy, and I just don't see the text saying either thing (that Balaam attacked the Isrealites, and that he didn't worship Yahweh).

DrJim · 11-02-2003, 08:32 AM

slave of Christ:

What does "deliberately non-mythical" mean?

A feature in a religious story about the creation of the world that establishes a characteristic of the deity, is pretty blinkin' mythical, methinks. It may be a feature unlike the neighbouring mythologies, but that by itself is no justification for claiming this bit of the story to be "non-mythical". It is quite unfair to define "Myth" as "stories about gods not told by the ancient Israelites".

So what if a lot of action (fighting, fornicating, or whatever) happens in other ANE myths but not in Genesis?

Much of your special "non-mythical" features of
Genesis are the result of the monotheism of the writer: not any deliberate "non-mythical" sense of reality. Granted, there may be parts of Genesis which are deliberately intended to undercut Babylonian claims. That does not by iteself make Genesis 1:1-2:4a "non-mythical". It only means that it is a polemical myth.

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11-01-2003, 12:56 PM	#21
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	When I am less tired. . . . The basic source is Frank Moore Cross' Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel. From this you can learn that YHWH is the "causitive imperfect of the Proto-Hebrew-Canaanite verb 'to be'" . . . of course. . . . Another good source . . . but a bit hard to find unfortunately . . . is The Triumph of Elohim: From Yahwisms to Judaisms, Diana Vikander Edelman (Editor). This covers some of the various deity names used in the OT--which are more than El, Elohim, and YHWH--and even some iconography. It also gives a bit on evidence of YHWH's possible consort Asherah. For more specifics, I will have to get back to you . . . I am away from my library. --J.D.

11-01-2003, 07:01 PM	#27
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel I can't pinpoint Steven Boyd. There is a Steven Boyd at The Masters College who might or might not have been at Multnomah or might be the same Steven Boyd who produced a video for the Creation Science Association entitled "Fingerpainting of God: Genesis 1 Hebrew text."

11-01-2003, 11:20 PM	#28
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Toto: [Hijack Mode: Engaged--Ed.] Can you "sticky" or place in the Recommended Reading the generic format for linking to Amazon so II can get their credit? Sometimes on a slower connection it is hard to find the PM you sent on it and some past post on it. If you want, I can make this a general request on the Complaint/Suggestion section. [Hijack Mode: Disengaged--Ed.] Folks, Cross' book is worth the investment, I return to it many times. --J.D.

11-02-2003, 08:32 AM	#30
DrJim Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Lethbridge AB Canada Posts: 445	slave of Christ: What does "deliberately non-mythical" mean? A feature in a religious story about the creation of the world that establishes a characteristic of the deity, is pretty blinkin' mythical, methinks. It may be a feature unlike the neighbouring mythologies, but that by itself is no justification for claiming this bit of the story to be "non-mythical". It is quite unfair to define "Myth" as "stories about gods not told by the ancient Israelites". So what if a lot of action (fighting, fornicating, or whatever) happens in other ANE myths but not in Genesis? Much of your special "non-mythical" features of Genesis are the result of the monotheism of the writer: not any deliberate "non-mythical" sense of reality. Granted, there may be parts of Genesis which are deliberately intended to undercut Babylonian claims. That does not by iteself make Genesis 1:1-2:4a "non-mythical". It only means that it is a polemical myth.

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