aa5874

So how do you propose to show that the English translation is not as clear the Greek? Are you going to use Greek?

And you just cannot prove that your interpretation must be correct.

All that is known is that there are no extant-writings about Jesus or Paul by well-known writers during the time of Tiberius or Claudius, except for forgeries in Josephus.

Jeffrey Gibson

How do you propose to show that the English translation of the Greek is clear?

Isn't this what he did do?

Would you care to show us how and or why Ben's interpretation of the logic of the passage is wrong?

All? It's also known that we have no extant writings from well known writers during the time of Tiberius and Claudius who mention Cornelius and Sergius Paulus, yes. Or do you know of some?

And are you really saying that Josephus wrote during the reigns of Tiberius and Claudius? Wow! Do you have some new data on Josephus that contradicts what scholars, using Josephus' own testimony regarding the dates of composition of his works, have been claiming?

And where is the evidence that you are the expert on 1st century Palestinian Judaism -- and now the writings of Julian -- that you have claimed you are?

Jeffrey

Ben C Smith

I was unable to decide from his words whether he was claiming (A) that Josephus wrote during the principates of Tiberius and Claudius (thus predicting with uncanny accuracy the course of historical events for the next few decades) or (B) that whoever introduced forged passages into Josephus did so during the principates of Tiberius and Claudius (thus interpolating passages into the texts before they were even written). Either way, where did the skepticism about miracles go all of a sudden?

Ben.

aa5874

Are you claiming Josephus was NOT alive during the time of Claudius? Or that Josephus only wrote about events that happened precisely on the very same day he was actually writing?

Jeffrey Gibson

Nice selective quotation. Interesting to see what you left out of this quote in order to be able to raise your question without making yourself look absurd.

Are you claiming that Josephus was alive during the principate of Tiberius?

And where is your evidence that you are the expert in 1st century Palestinian Judaism and Julian's writings that you have laid claim to being?

Jeffrey

aa5874

Do you not see the word "OR"?

Ben C Smith

Josephus simply was not a well-known writer during the time of Tiberius or Claudius.

Ben.

aa5874

Do you not see the words "THESE EVENTS HAPPENED IN THE REIGN OF TIBERIUS OR CLAUDIUS?

Is not a writer of that time a contemporary of Tiberius OR Claudius?

Or is it not clear in Greek?

Your logics are getting worse with time!

Ben C Smith

I was reading your English statement.

No, not in your English statement.

Ben.

spamandham

Can you explain what is clearer in the Greek that is not translating well?

All but the last are reasonable. I'll go through the same exercise, but I'm going to include the entire paragraph so no context is lost:

But what great gift of this sort do the Hebrews boast of as bestowed on them by God, the Hebrews who have persuaded you to desert to them? If you had at any rate paid heed to their teachings, you would not have fared altogether ill, and though worse than you did before, when you were with us, still your condition would have been bearable and supportable. For you would be worshipping one god instead of many, not a man, or rather many wretched men.62 And though you would be following a law that is harsh and stern and contains much that is savage and barbarous, instead of our mild and humane laws, |377 and would in other respects be inferior to us, yet you would be more holy and purer than now in your forms of worship. But now it has come to pass that like leeches you have sucked the worst blood from that source and left the purer. [A] Yet Jesus, who won over the least worthy of you, has been known by name for but little more than three hundred years: {B}and during his lifetime he accomplished nothing worth hearing of, [C]unless anyone thinks that to heal crooked and blind men and to exorcise those who were possessed by evil demons in the villages of Bethsaida and Bethany can be classed as a mighty achievement.[D] As for purity of life you do not know whether he so much as mentioned it; [E]but you emulate the rages and the bitterness of the Jews, overturning temples and altars,63 and you slaughtered not only those of us who remained true to the teachings of their fathers, but also men who were as much astray as yourselves, heretics,64 because they did not wail over the corpse 65 in the same fashion as yourselves. But these are rather your own doings;[F] for nowhere did either Jesus or Paul hand down to you such commands. [G]The reason for this is that they never even hoped that you would one day attain to such power as you have; for they were content if they could delude maidservants and slaves, and through them the women, and men like Cornelius 66 and Sergius.67[H] But if you can show me that one of these men is mentioned by the well-known writers of that time,----these events happened in the reign of Tiberius or Claudius,----then you may consider that I speak falsely about all matters.

A) Jesus was insignificant in his own day and only managed to win over losers

B) Jesus accomplished nothing noteworthy during his lifetime

C) Granted, he had a couple of questionable miracles to his name, but nothing important

D) Not only was he a nobody, but you don't even know what he taught

E) You've invented a bunch of teachings from whole cloth modelled after the worst traditions of the Jews, and are so irrational that you even kill others who believe just like yourselves save minor nits

F) Neither Jesus nor Paul told you to behave like that

G) Jesus and Paul didn't have lofty goals. They were petty con men deluding slaves and other insignificant men such as Cornelius and Sergius.

H) But if you can show that either Jesus or Paul were written about by well known writers of their time, or if you can show that the types of persecutions you engage in were also happening during the reigns of Tiberius or Claudius, then I will conceed that the things you are doing were in fact commanded by Paul and Jesus, rather than being your own invention.



Ben, we've both presented our cases, and I don't have anything else to say on this. Anyone following along can decide for themselves which interpretation makes more sense.