Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 11-26-2009, 12:42 PM

Seashell on the Mountaintop (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Quote:

The Seashell on the Mountaintop: A Story of Science Sainthood and the Humble Genius Who Discovered a New History of the Earth (Hardcover)
~ Alan Cutler (Author)
Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
Science writer Cutler (a contributing editor to The Forces of Change: A New View of Nature) re-creates a fascinating 17th-century world of political and religious upheaval and the progress achieved by curious scientists like the Danish anatomist and (according to Cutler) founder of geology, Nicolaus Steno (1638-1686). A one-time medical student renowned for "his preternatural skill with a scalpel," Steno discovered the parotid gland, which produces saliva, and tear glands. Steno's genius for anatomy provided him the tools to work on the mystery of fossils and the question of how seashells could be found in the rocks of mountains far from the sea. He hypothesized that layers upon layers of earth formed sediments in a sequence, recording a series of events and telling a story about the age of the earth. According to Steno, the stratum at the bottom is the oldest and that at the top is the youngest. Seashells, he said, found their way to mountaintops not by the great biblical flood, as many of his contemporaries believed, but by constant erosion and the sedimentation of soil. Steno published his discoveries in De Solido, after which he abandoned science, converted to Catholicism and spent the last 20 years of his life as an ascetic priest and eventually a bishop. In 1988, he was beatified. Cutler's animated and energetic prose provides a page-turning thriller of scientific discovery, and this splendid biography captures in intimate detail not only its subject but also the tenor of Steno's times.
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.

From Booklist
In piquant contrast to the oft-told tale of Galileo, the acclaimed martyr of astronomy, Cutler recounts the little-known story of Nicolaus Steno, the neglected saint of geology. Living scant years after Galileo, Steno devoutly embraced the church even as he advanced a revolutionary science that tested orthodoxy at least as much as Copernicanism. Despite his conversion to Roman Catholicism, Steno was undeterred from his scientific quest to understand why petrified sharks' teeth--and other remains of sea creatures--frequently appeared in rocks high in the Tuscan mountains. With his publication of the principle of superposition, Steno gave scientists a key to reading the history of the planet in its rock layers, a premise still central to modern geology. His theory discredited many traditional readings of Genesis, but Cutler finds no evidence that church censors disapproved of Steno's work or that Steno himself ever regarded his theory as a threat to his faith. Indeed, Steno concluded his life in holy orders and ultimately qualified for posthumous beatification. A sophisticated portrait of a forgotten pioneer. Bryce Christensen
Copyright © American Library Association. All rights reserved

ApostateAbe · 11-26-2009, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

But the publication isn't primary, the knife is!

So?

Clivedurdle · 11-26-2009, 12:51 PM

Cross posted - the evidence is always interpreted, with fascinating results and repercussions - despite what the second reviewer above states, Steno did give up his geology and revert to his religion.

And the stars and the spread of ideas are utterly critical to what we end up with now. And on this particular religion, interpretations of time are probably critical.

AS may not be a very good reporter of stuff that I thought was reasonably agreed. As Darwin got a huge amount right, so did other nineteenth century writers.

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=278437

ApostateAbe · 11-26-2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Cross posted - the evidence is always interpreted, with fascinating results and repercussions - despite what the second reviewer above states, Steno did give up his geology and revert to his religion.

And the stars and the spread of ideas are utterly critical to what we end up with now. And on this particular religion, interpretations of time are probably critical.

AS may not be a very good reporter of stuff that I thought was reasonably agreed. As Darwin got a huge amount right, so did other nineteenth century writers.

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=278437

Acharya S has heard the criticism continually for years, and there seems to be no improvement in the way she makes her case. If she wants to make the case that constellation arrangements strongly influence myths to cause similarities all over the world, then she needs evidence, because it is NOT a commonly accepted idea. The common view is that one constellation can be given any one of various diverse symbols, depending almost entirely on what a culture values. And she does not seem to have evidence. The items in her incomplete bibliographies seem to lead to nowhere.

GakuseiDon · 11-26-2009, 03:23 PM

I think it is clear that Acharya S is not just proposing that constellation arrangements strongly influence myths to cause similarities, but that there was a global civilization that spread these ideas as well. This is explicitly laid out in her book "The Christ Conspiracy", where she has a chapter entitled "Evidence of an Ancient Global Civilization". She gives examples of common religious ideas and words that can be found in civilizations around the world, which she suggests is evidence for an ancient global civilization.

And who set up that Global Civilization, that spread common religious ideas? Acharya S suggests an unlikely source: The Pygmies, who believed in a Pygmy Christ.

Dave likes to claim that Acharya is misrepresented and that people who criticize her haven't actually read her books. So below I've given quotes from various places in her book. Dave can verify if I am representing Acharya accurately:

p. 391 (page numbers may vary based on edition):

Quote:

Evidence of an Ancient Global Civilization

As has been seen, it is virtually impossible to determine which nation is the progenitor of western culture and, therefore, the Judeo-Christian tradition, and we are left to ponder the idea of another source, such as the Pygmies, who claim to have been a global culture many thousands of years ago.

p. 288:

Quote:

Indeed, into any fair analysis must be factored an overlooked people who, if the theory of evolution is correct, must constitute one of the oldest races on the planet: the Pygmies. In reality, the Pygmies provide a key piece of the puzzle, as many of their ancient traditions are basically the same as those of the cultures that succeeded them. We have already seen that they were pre-Christian monotheists who revered the cross.

She goes on to quote author Jackson, who having discussed Pygmy influence on the Horus myth, writes:

Quote:

[Jackson writes that] "... The Pygmy Christ was born of a virgin, died for the salvation of his people, arose from the dead, and finally ascended to heaven. Certainly this looks like Christianity before Christ."

She then quotes Jackson again, who refers to how "Hallet's Pygmy friends" told Hallet that in the distant past the Pygmies had a "highly technical and advanced type of material culture and that they built boats and traveled widely around the world, but that this technical excellence brought them nothing but bad luck", so they abandoned this "high material civilization".

Elsewhere, Acharya goes on to describe similarities between the Mayan (in the Americas, remember!) and Eastern religion and language and notes a possible similarity to those of the Pygmies:

Quote:

Moreover, the Mayan creator god was called "Hurakan", and the Caribbean storm god was "Hurukan," both of which are nearly identical to the Tibetan wrathful diety, "Heruka," which in turn is related to Herakcles or Hercules. It is from this stormy god that we get the word "Hurricane." Walker hypothesizes that "Horus" was "Heruka" of the East and notes that the Pygmies revered Heru, an archaic name for Horus.

In this final quote. Acharya speculates that the Pygmies are the link "between the black and white races":

Quote:

Thus, Pygmy remains and culture are found around the globe, including from Egypt to India...

Although they may be the oldest race, the Pygmies are in fact true human beings and evidently reached an advanced state long before the "giants" existed in large numbers. The Pygmies represent an anthropological enigma, however, as they have been described as both negroid and caucasoid...

In the Pygmies can be found not only very ancient origins of human culture and religion but evidently a "missing link" between the black and white races as well.

So it is clear that she isn't just proposing that similar religious imagery and mythology arose independently throughout the world, but that there was an "Ancient Global Civilization" that helped the global spread of ideas as well as artifacts and language.

Dave31 · 11-30-2009, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Barefoot Bree "But this belongs in BC&H, not Comparative. Off you go."

My bad. Toto had already posted it in the Luxor thread. I was hoping for a more mature conversation over there about the comparisons of all the other gods. It's nearly impossible to have an adult conversation here in BC & H concerning Acharya's work due to the constant malicious attacks by the harpies who've never really read her work. Now, I see they're quote mining in order to build straw man arguments. Or, maybe GakuseiDon is actually reading the book but there's a blatantly obvious agenda involved that is as transparent as glass.

GakuseiDon, AS is not quoting Churchward for any of the pertinent contentions concerning Pygmies.

On p. 388 of Christ Con, she records Jackson in Christianity Before Christ as saying:

Quote:

"Hallet's Pygmy friends told him that in the distant past they developed a highly technical and advanced type of material culture and that they built boats and traveled widely around the world, but that this technical excellence brought them nothing but bad luck, so, preferring happiness to misery, they finally gave up this high material civilization. There may be a lot of truth in these traditions, for Pygmy fossils have been found in all parts of the world."

Hallet is also the one who brings up the Pygmy Christ, also related by Jackson. Jean-Pierre Hallet was a Belgian anthropologist who lived with the Pygmies for 20 years and recorded what they relayed to him in his book Pygmy Kitabu. of course, all that is inconvenient to your agenda of trashing Acharya so lets just omit all that.

It's amazing how avowed Christians like, for example, GakuseiDon, Roger & Jeffrey, can hold onto ridiculous beliefs among you all, but you never harp on them. You only go after Acharya S, a female author who doesn't believe that a Jewish guy 2,000 years ago was born of a virgin, raised people from the dead, walked on water, himself rose from the dead and flew off into heaven - as GD, Roger and Jeffrey believe. Meanwhile, you attempt to ridicule Acharya, who doesn't believe these ridiculous things which have no credible evidence to substantiate the claims at all. Ever heard of people throwing rocks at glass houses? You guys are on absolutely no moral high ground whatsoever - and *THAT* is what's really funny here.

Quote:

ApostateAbe "Dave31, you know Acharya S personally"

You assume too much - I got it from here

http://www.freethoughtnation.com/ind...:astrotheology

http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/...t=2946&start=0

I notice there is a decent conversation about Buddhism presenting much of the same info found in Acharya's work even by some of the same sources i.e Thundy, Christian Lindtner etc from 2005 and there appears to be no hysteria but, as soon as Acharya's name were to be mentioned I'm sure all hell would break loose like a bunch of hyenas and the instant pile-on would begin. You guys are just jealous with a bad case of misogyny, that's all.

Is Christianity western BUDDHISM??
http://www.freeratio.org/thearchives...d.php?t=123887

:huh:

ApostateAbe · 12-02-2009, 10:01 AM

FreethoughtNation.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackson

Fantastic!!!

Thanks for updating The Origins of Christianity article Acharya S. I notice that the sources that gave you so much grief over the years since 1999 (Kersey Graves etc) have been removed and replaced with highly respected sources making your article more solid than before. AND, you haven't backed away from anything ... rather, you've actually added more to it and strengthened your case.

Would you say that your new book,The Christ Myth Anthology is an updated version of The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever SOLD from 1999? That's a genius idea - a 2nd edition.

Keep 'em coming!

You're the best!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JH Chrestos

When it came out 16 years ago the internet was in its infancy. This is a perfect format that is easy to read and understand. There is a whole new generation that would love the truth they just don't have the time to read a 600 page dissertation.
The Kersey Graves info may not have been 100% accurate but you must remember that he was breaking relatively new ground that built upon Massey, and of course the info he had to work with was scant...no internet in those days.
So continue to hash and rehash and re-re hash you will hit new people each time. BTW Atheism is up to 15% in this country from about 7% in the 70s , all it takes is Information and Courage. I sure wish we could change that label to Realism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

I was brought up in a traditional baptist family and only started considering the idea of this religion consuming all of the world based on an idea of the sun as not literal but to be transcended only four years ago. I was the son of a preacher two times, one biologically, and one in an adoptive manner. It seemed that I was hopeless, but my rebellious and revolutionary spirit and consciousness kept me looking for Truth because I would find many discrepancies in the doctrine and lives of religious people.

The more I sought out the Truth, the more I was led into new possibilities. I was being liberated from my hypnotism and intoxication. It started with the deeper things of Gnosticism, then went to the alien cover-ups, to conspiracy "theorists," and now to Achayra S and the cover-ups of the true identity of slaves from Africa.

Thank you for showing us that we are free to use our thinking capacity and for showing us Truth!

I am copying these posts so the people of the FRDB know what kind of people we are dealing with.

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-02-2009, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

It's amazing how avowed Christians like, for example, GakuseiDon, Roger & Jeffrey

I am a what???

Jeffrey

avi · 12-02-2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

It's amazing how avowed Christians like, for example, GakuseiDon, Roger & Jeffrey

I am a what???

Jeffrey

Dave, I just don't see it this way, at all. To me, the personalities are irrelevant, so I disagree with you and Abe and Jeffrey. It simply does not matter who agrees, or who disagrees. What does matter is whether or not the substance of her thesis has merit.

For that analysis, again, it does not matter, in my opinion, whether or not this or that expert agrees or disagrees.

What does matter is the EVIDENCE. Present the evidence, and let anyone make up his or her own mind, based not upon expert abc123's opinion, but upon the data itself. Show us the archaeological data, and the documents, and let folks draw their own conclusions. I am not going to accept her hypothesis, or reject her hypothesis, because any other person approves or disapproves of her conclusion. Please, Dave, more data, less gossip.

avi

gurugeorge · 12-02-2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

It's amazing how avowed Christians like, for example, GakuseiDon, Roger & Jeffrey, can hold onto ridiculous beliefs among you all, but you never harp on them. You only go after Acharya S, a female author who doesn't believe that a Jewish guy 2,000 years ago was born of a virgin, raised people from the dead, walked on water, himself rose from the dead and flew off into heaven - as GD, Roger and Jeffrey believe. Meanwhile, you attempt to ridicule Acharya, who doesn't believe these ridiculous things which have no credible evidence to substantiate the claims at all. Ever heard of people throwing rocks at glass houses? You guys are on absolutely no moral high ground whatsoever - and *THAT* is what's really funny here.

Dude, I'm pretty sympathetic to AS on the whole, but you're not doing her any favours here by posting stuff like this. And I say that as someone who's had a few run ins with the people you mention, and strong disagreements with them.

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11-26-2009, 12:51 PM	#23
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Cross posted - the evidence is always interpreted, with fascinating results and repercussions - despite what the second reviewer above states, Steno did give up his geology and revert to his religion. And the stars and the spread of ideas are utterly critical to what we end up with now. And on this particular religion, interpretations of time are probably critical. AS may not be a very good reporter of stuff that I thought was reasonably agreed. As Darwin got a huge amount right, so did other nineteenth century writers. http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=278437

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