Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-17-2008, 11:13 AM

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Originally Posted by thedistillers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

So .. as I suspected, you have no actual, hard, empircal evidence to back up your claim. Just a deduction based upon some question begging assumptions

And where on earth do you get the idea that all/most NT scholars are Americans? Is Wright? Dunn, Theissen, Ludemann, Marshall? F. Watson? U. Schnelle? E. Schweizer? R. Schnakenburg, P. Essler, M. Hooker? J. Kloppenborg? Beaseley Murray? W.D. Davies? M. Goodacre? R. Martin? R. France? F. Bovon? C. Evans? R. Morgan? S. Kealy? R. Baukham? R. Burridge, H. Bond? L. Alexander? R. Watts? M. Hengel? C. Brown? G. Twelftree? U. Luz? E. Ferguson? B. Gerhardson? D. Guthrie? E. Eve? J. Muddimann? C. Rowland? W. Campbell? D. Wenham? S. Walton? M. Davies? D. Catchpoole? H. Koester? R. Nolland? W. Carter? C. Brockmuel? R. Piper? F. Neierynk? J.D. Crossan? G. Vermes? D. Horrell? W. Telford?

Were Dodd? Caird? Montifiore? Perrin? Bultmann? Kaesemann? Dibelius? Lindars? Trocme? Swete? Bruce? Jeremias? Cullmann? C.F. Evans? D. Nineham? Lightfoot? Wrede? Schoeps? Deismann? C.F.D. Moule? C.K. Barrett? T.W. Manson? W. Barclay? V. Taylor? B.H. Streeter? Todt? Bornkamm? J.A. T. Robinson? the authors of the articles in TDNT?

Perhaps you can tell me, based on demographics, how many US Islamic scholars are Muslims, or Buddhist scholars are Buddhists? How many classicists are believers in Zeus?

I'm afraid that on the point above, you are not exhibiting any sense at all, let alone some of the "common" kind, which is often wrong anyway in that it works from prejudice and false premises.

Jeffrey

Common sense suggests that people who are going to have an academic interest with the NT are more likely to be Christians.

But logic does not. In any case, the question was "how do you know, as you implied you did with your "surely", that this in fact is is the case, not "what are the assumptions upon which your claim is built?".

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Coupled that with the fact that there is a lot of Christians in countries where NT scholars come from (like the US), I think we can make 2 + 2.

Thank you for dodging my questions

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Unless you present yourself actual, hard, empirical evidence showing the contrary, I will maintain my position.

Leaving aside the burden shifting here, I think it's a safe bet to say that you'd do so no matter what evidence to the contrary was presented you.

Jeffrey

thedistillers · 12-17-2008, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Leaving aside the burden shifting here, I think it's a safe bet to say that you'd do so no matter what evidence to the contrary was presented you.

Jeffrey

And why would you think so? If you think that it's an issue I strongly care about, you're mistaken. I fail to see the difference if the % of Christians amongst NT scholars is above or below 50%.

I guess you have an issue with my use of the word "surely"? Okay. But I simply think it would be quite extraordinary if the % of Christians NT scholars would be below 50%. This is simply a matter of what we should expect, statistically, for the reasons I have given previously.

Do you take objection simply because of my lack of evidence, or do you have any information, or observation, that makes you think I'm mistaken about my conclusion? If you have any evidence to the contrary, I would certainly be interested to consider it.

Lugubert · 12-17-2008, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedistillers

Common sense suggests that people who are going to have an academic interest with the NT are more likely to be Christians. Coupled that with the fact that there is a lot of Christians in countries where NT scholars come from (like the US), I think we can make 2 + 2.

I academically concentrate on the OT, but I also "have an academic interest with the NT". I'm an atheist. Not for a second I think I'm alone on that view(s).

I also study South Asian religions. As such, that reveals nothing of to what degree, if any, I personally agree with their views.

Splarnst · 12-17-2008, 02:45 PM

I would guess that most Torah scholars are Jewish, most Veda scholars are Hindu, most Koran scholars are Muslim...

mountainman · 12-17-2008, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukeprog

I can't find research pointing either way. All I know is that when I read New Testament scholarship, I am far more likely to be reading a Christian than anything else.

Anybody know?

Dear lukeprog,

Do you distinguish between "NT scholarship" and "historians of the church"? I have extracted this (1966) response from here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AM

The truth is of course that historians of the church are still divided on the fundamental issue of the divine origin of the church. The number of professional historians who take the Church as a divine intitution -- and can therefore be considered to be the followers of Eusebius -- increased rather than decreased in the years after the FIrst World War.

On the other hand the historians who study the history of the Church as that of a human institution have consolidated their methods. They have been helped by the general adoption in historiography of those standards of erudite research which at seems at one time to have been confined to ecclesiastical historians and controversialists. We sometimes forget that Eduard Meyer was, at least in Germany, the first non-theologian to write a scholarly history of the origins of Christianity, and this happened only in 1921.

Anyone who believes in any form of early christianity is required to believe Eusebius (since Eusebius is our only source). An atheist might well believe Eusebius, and ascribe historicity to early christianity. The author above uses the term belief - not just as in a scholarly author's belief in Christianity, or in a scholarly authors belief in Eusebius (which is essentially deemed a priori gospel). He uses the term of an author's belief in the "divine origin of the church" to parse the field.

Hope this contributes.
Best wishes,

Pete

DCHindley · 12-17-2008, 04:47 PM

I have to agree with those who suggest you have to define exactly what you mean by "Christian." Self professed Christians come in many flavors, not all of whom recognize some of the others as bona-fide "Christians." For example, ask self professed Christians whether Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons are Christians. There are numerous fringe sects that incorporate Christian elements into them, and often elemnents from other religions as well. Are they Christian as well?

To make the matter worse, even within mainstream Christian churches, there are difference in focus. I like to think of focus as occupying a spectrum, with focus on individual salvation on one end and focus on general salvation at the other end. In modern Christianity, the personal salvation end has been populated by evangelicals, especially southern baptists and 'bible-believing' congregations, while the other end has concentrated on the ability of Chrithian ethics to cure what ails the world, or a social-gospel. That end is somethimes called "liberal" but the social gospel has been taught and practiced for a long, long, time, often by folks who also espouse the personal gospel POV for themselves. Maybe its really a circle, not a spectrum.

Do some of the personal-gospel adherents consider some of the social-gospel adherents to be heretics? Sure. Do some social-gospel adherents think some personal-gospel adherents cannot see the forest for the trees? Sure.

However, I also feel that a certain number of biblical critics who consider themselves agnostic with regard to the Christian personal-gospel POV, could still identify with the Christian social-gospel POV.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukeprog

I recently interviewed Mike Licona and said that "Most New Testament scholars are Christian," and Mike flatly denied it: "Most New Testament scholars are NOT Christian."

Has anybody actually counted this up? Is there any actual research on this? For examples, Habermas has counted up people's beliefs on certain facts of the Resurrection - has he also counted their professed faith? Has anyone counted up the professed faith of members of the Society of Biblica Literature? Has anyone done such a survey?

I can't find research pointing either way. All I know is that when I read New Testament scholarship, I am far more likely to be reading a Christian than anything else.

Anybody know?

Doug Shaver · 12-18-2008, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukeprog

Anybody know?

Strictly speaking, probably not, as Jeffrey demonstrates in his usual manner.

To an evangelical Christian, anybody who publishes a paper that undermines evangelical dogma is either (a) not a real Christian or (b) not a real scholar.

For those of us who think it possible that someone can be a Christian while maintaining skepticism about the Bible's historical accuracy, the supposition that most NT scholars are Christian looks pretty plausible from a probabilistic argument. I am not aware, though, of any surveys that have produced reliable data on the subject.

GakuseiDon · 12-18-2008, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

To an evangelical Christian, anybody who publishes a paper that undermines evangelical dogma is either (a) not a real Christian or (b) not a real scholar.

This reminds me of a quote that I really like:

"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth, they will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest."

aa5874 · 12-18-2008, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

To an evangelical Christian, anybody who publishes a paper that undermines evangelical dogma is either (a) not a real Christian or (b) not a real scholar.

This reminds me of a quote that I really like:

"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth, they will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest."

And perhaps the same applies to liberal Christians and evangelicals alike. They seem not to get along.

Joan of Bark · 12-18-2008, 07:08 PM

A Democrat is anyone who calls themselves a Democrat. They don't need the agreement of other Democrats

A Cubs fan is anyone who calls themselves a Cubs fan. They don't need the approval of other Cubs fans for the label to apply.

So a Christian is anyone who calls themselves a Christian.

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12-17-2008, 02:45 PM	#14
Splarnst Contributor Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Jacksonville, Florida Posts: 13,161	I would guess that most Torah scholars are Jewish, most Veda scholars are Hindu, most Koran scholars are Muslim...

12-18-2008, 07:08 PM	#20
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	A Democrat is anyone who calls themselves a Democrat. They don't need the agreement of other Democrats A Cubs fan is anyone who calls themselves a Cubs fan. They don't need the approval of other Cubs fans for the label to apply. So a Christian is anyone who calls themselves a Christian.

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