aa5874

You are NOT sure??? You don't really know what you were talking about.

No 1st century writings from any saints have been recovered and dated to that time period.

You also seem unprepared to argue against Jesus mythicism.

MJers are prepared to expose the weaknesses of the HJ argument.

sotto voce

Aka war criminal.

If he existed. It does not matter if he did not. What matters is that those who believe he existed, who also approve him in every way, believe him and others he approved to have succeeded by what are today regarded as atrocities akin to those that were the subjects of the Nuremberg Trials.

It matters not a little.

.

andrewcriddle

Josephus Tacitus and Suetonius all at face value provide evidence for 1st century Christianity. All of these accounts are potentially questionable, particularly Josephus, but it is unlikely that all three of them are inauthentic or mistaken.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller

But all are demonstrated to have been dependent on Josephus (or perhaps the scribes that preserved their works). Josephus in so far as it is a revision of an earlier hypomnema. Tacitus in the account of the destruction of Jerusalem (which is problematic). See also Bartosz Adamczewski "It should be noted that not only Tacitus but also Suetonius creatively used Josephus' works as sources of information about Jewish matters." [Heirs of a United Church p. 67]

andrewcriddle

If Tacitus is dependent on Josephus for his knowledge of Christ this would support an early date for the TF.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller

Maybe. The section in Tacitus is strange though.

steve_bnk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhamma...ammad.27s_life

'...The Quran is the central religious text of Islam and Muslims believe that it represents the words of God revealed to Muhammad through the archangel Gabriel.[26][27][28] Although it mentions Muhammad directly only four times,[29] there are verses which can be interpreted as allusions to Muhammad's life.[15][n 3] The Quran however provides little assistance for a chronological biography of Muhammad, and many of the utterances recorded in it lack historical context.[30][31]

Early biographies

Main article: Prophetic biography

Next in importance are historical works by writers of the 3rd and 4th centuries of the Muslim era (A.H. -- 8th and 9th century C.E.).[32] These include the traditional Muslim biographies of Muhammad (the sira literature), which provide further information on Muhammad's life.[33]

The earliest surviving written sira (biographies of Muhammad and quotes attributed to him) is Ibn Ishaq's Life of God's Messenger written ca. 767 CE (150 AH). The work is lost, but was used verbatim at great length by Ibn Hisham and Al-Tabari.[34][35] Another early source is the history of Muhammad's campaigns by al-Waqidi (death 207 of Muslim era), and the work of his secretary Ibn Sa'd al-Baghdadi (death 230 of Muslim era).[32]

Many scholars accept the accuracy of the earliest biographies, though their accuracy is unascertainable.[34] Recent studies have led scholars to distinguish between the traditions touching legal matters and the purely historical ones. In the former sphere, traditions could have been subject to invention while in the latter sphere, aside from exceptional cases, the material may have been only subject to "tendential shaping".[36]..'


Buddhists, Christians, Jews, and Muslims all have the same problem as to origims and contemporary references to central charcaters.

sotto voce

Do they?

Why would anyone believe that?

Minimalist

You had best read Spencer's book. Mohammed may have simply been a title that later morphed into a man.

The video only skims the evidence which is much clearer in the book.

premjan

Maybe Gabriel was the name of the composer of the Koran.