mountainman

Dear Andrew,

Thanks for your contribution with which I agree. The author is describing Constatius' father Constantine as the person who who had laid the foundation of the imperial power and the Christian religion. This seems to suggest if we sent a current affairs news reporting crew back to the mid fourth century, and asked this author, when was the foundation of the christian religion established, and by whom, he would not have said the prenicene apostolic church and the prenicene Eusebian apostles, but Constantine's church structure of basilicas and Constantine's three hundred and eighteen fathers of the Nicaean council.


Best wishes,


Pete

mountainman

Dear J-D,

What evidence would you suggest we examine in order to support your opinion that the dating of the origins of the christian religion might be actually in the first century? Are you able to support your own opinion with any evidence whatsoever? Over.

Best wishes,


Pete

J-D

Whatever Nazianzus meant by 'laid the foundation of', it isn't 'was the first originator of', since it's quite clear that Constantine was not the first originator of the imperial power.

J-D

Every religion whose historical origin is well recorded began as a group of followers gathered around an original preacher of doctrine. Nobody has ever given a definite coherent account of how Christianity could have originated in any other way. The canonical Christian Gospels do not give a coherent and consistent account and therefore cannot be considered generally historically reliable, but they agree (as indeed do non-canonical reports) on placing this original preacher and his followers in first-century Palestine. They also include incidental references to a number of individuals whose existence is historically verifiable (Herod the Great, Herod Antipas, Annas, Caiaphas, and Pontius Pilate--also the parable of the pounds probably refers indirectly to Archelaus, although he is not named). There is no explanation for a hypothetical later originator of these stories to insert these references--they are survivals from contemporary first-century accounts, despite the later manipulations of the record. (There are also references to historical first-century individuals like Gamaliel in Acts, which again make no sense as later fabrications.)

Now, why won't you produce any evidence? Don't you have any?

mountainman

Dear Doug,

They would have been useful if they were true. If the narrative itself is a christian fabrication of a late century, their utility would not extend into the domain of ancient history prior to their fabrication/authorship.

The heretics abounded (alas!) during the primaeval period of christian origins, and we cannot be sure who is writing what, about whom, and whether what they said about each other, or not, as the case may be, has any integrity. The history of christian origins, written by Euesebius between 312 and 324 CE perhaps under the sponsorship of the supreme being himself, suffers from the same problems. Birds of a feather?

Best wishes,


Pete

mountainman

Is this evidence?

Is this evidence?

Is this evidence?

What sort of evidence is this? Now, why won't you produce any evidence? Don't you have any? Do you call the above "evidence" in support of an opinion that the dating of the origins of the christian religion might be actually in the first century? How long have you been posting here? This is a rather unsatisfactory response.

I will ask you once more. Would you please provide one single piece of evidence by which you are convinced that we have christianity happening, as disclosed by Eusebius, in the first century.



Best wishes,


Pete

mountainman

Dear J-D,

The capital city of the empire, Constantinople, or the "City of Constantine" was established by Constantine where Byzantium once stood. Perhaps this is what is being referred to. By the mid fourth century it had eclipsed Rome as the capital of the empire, and the imperial power, in accordance to Constantine's original designs.

Best wishes,'


Pete

mountainman

Dear avi,

Firstly a couple of points. I am not presenting the council of Nicaea as being attended by "trusted associates" of Constantine. On the contrary he had a small number of trusted associates. Howeve the bulk of the attendees, to whom he wrote requesting their attendance, were let us say the three hundred most influential people in the eastern empire c.324/325 CE who had not yet been executed by Contantine.

Secondly, the "diocese" was a political and military initiative of Diocletian, which was established during the Tetrarchy before Constantine, and the word was taken over by the christians. Please check this out.

Have you read Robin Lane-Fox on the Council of Nicea?
Here are my notes onPagans and Christians, in the Mediterranean World from the second century AD to the conversion of Constantine",.


Note that the above is quoted from Robin Lane-Fox [Editor: except for editorial comments which are mine.]

Best wishes,


Pete

J-D

I just gave you my evidence {'things useful for forming a conclusion'; 'grounds for belief or disbelief'). If you're not satisfied by it, that's another matter.

Incidentally, it's not evidence that Christianity happened as disclosed by Eusebius. I said that it probably originated in the first century, and I still think so. I never endorsed Eusebius's account.

J-D

Maybe when Nazianzus said that Constantine 'laid the foundation' of the imperial power, he didn't mean that Constantine was the first originator of the imperial power, but that he had established it at Constantinople. I agree that that's a possible interpretation of his meaning. But if what he meant by 'laid the foundation of' is not 'was the first originator of', then when he said that Constantine 'laid the foundation of' the Christian religion', it doesn't have to mean that he was saying Constantine was the first originator of the Christian religion. He could have meant that Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the empire and organised for it to be given canonical form--something which is not, as far as I know, in dispute.