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Old 08-08-2006, 09:20 AM   #21
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Religion is mental masturbation for the insecure.
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Old 08-08-2006, 10:07 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by seebs
Well, if you know what I'm thinking so well as to contradict my own impressions of what I'm thinking, I don't suppose there's much point in my saying anything! You can just assert I didn't mean it, or I'm making it up, or I have some sinister agenda.

So, uhm. I guess I'll just bow out, and go on thinking that you haven't got any idea at all what I think, believe, or want, and that you're unlikely to develop any such ideas while you're so sure you already know that you won't listen.
Yeah, it's me with the problem; your definition just drips with philosophical rigor and tolerance. Nothing untoward, no sir.

To be fair, it isn't just you and the recipe is quite fun! Take one word with religious (supernatural, worship, faith) connotation or association. Choose word whose descriptee's have given it a bad name. Strip parts of word of religious connotation (we'd hate to burn ourselves after all!). Prepare flaky defense about subjectivity of words. Apply liberally to atheists, taking full advantage of word's old connotations while knowing full well the atheist's position isn't religious. Serve with large platter of sanctimony.
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Old 08-08-2006, 10:34 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs
Well, if you know what I'm thinking so well as to contradict my own impressions of what I'm thinking, I don't suppose there's much point in my saying anything! You can just assert I didn't mean it, or I'm making it up, or I have some sinister agenda.

So, uhm. I guess I'll just bow out, and go on thinking that you haven't got any idea at all what I think, believe, or want, and that you're unlikely to develop any such ideas while you're so sure you already know that you won't listen.
There are those who will listen, so please don't bow out. I am a huge proponent of dictionary definition number 4 for a number of reasons.

Main reason: my OWN religion is not classified as a religion by the first three. Neopaganism does not neccesarily believe in or revere anything supernatural as the creator; rather the univeres and its creation can be regarded as entirely natural. Most Neopagan religions lack institutionalization and order (there are lots of solitary practitioners, such as myself). Neopaganism in general is not founded on dogma, be it a text or a spiritual leader. So we aren't a religion unless you include definition four. And there's no question that Neopaganism is a religion.

Second reason: it breaks down what can sometimes be uneccesary barriers between secular and religious such that everyone is in some way religious. That is, by the way, how the US government handles 'religious' for the purposes of the draft. If you want to get out of the draft for religious reasons, you can be a member of a pacifistic church or you can demonstrate your philosophical pacifism is a "cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."
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Old 08-08-2006, 10:54 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Starlock
There are those who will listen, so please don't bow out. I am a huge proponent of dictionary definition number 4 for a number of reasons.

Main reason: my OWN religion is not classified as a religion by the first three. Neopaganism does not neccesarily believe in or revere anything supernatural as the creator; rather the univeres and its creation can be regarded as entirely natural. Most Neopagan religions lack institutionalization and order (there are lots of solitary practitioners, such as myself). Neopaganism in general is not founded on dogma, be it a text or a spiritual leader. So we aren't a religion unless you include definition four. And there's no question that Neopaganism is a religion.

Second reason: it breaks down what can sometimes be uneccesary barriers between secular and religious such that everyone is in some way religious. That is, by the way, how the US government handles 'religious' for the purposes of the draft. If you want to get out of the draft for religious reasons, you can be a member of a pacifistic church or you can demonstrate your philosophical pacifism is a "cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."
That's an interesting point, actually. I hadn't thought about the interactions of this terminology with "freedom of religion".

That actually strengthens my belief that the broader usage is more relevant in most cases. What symbol goes on someone's tombstone in the spot for "religion"? That's close enough to me.

But then, I think zero is a number, too.
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