aa5874

Well, all I am saying is that based on the evidence provided in "Against Celsus" that it is LEAST likely that Origen was mistaken when he claimed that "in none of the Gospels current in the Churches is Jesus Himself ever described as being a carpenter".

It would appear that Origen had a copy or copies of gMark in his possession when he wrote "Against Celsus".

Examine "Against Celsus"1.62 So it would appear Origen was AWARE of MULTIPLE copies of gMark.

And earlier in "Against Celsus", Origen did state that certain parts of gMark were identical or very similar to gMatthew.

"Against Celsus" Based on the evidence from Origen's "Against Celsus" it is LEAST likely that he was mistaken when he stated "in none of the Gospels current in the Churches is Jesus Himself ever described as being a carpenter".

Brian63

I am not at all disputing whether he was aware of multiple copies of gMark, or how similar they were to gMatthew. All I am saying is that when he made that statement, it was just a factual error. People nowadays make all sorts of false claims about what some book says (including their holy books) for various reasons: They may have just made their claim without verifying its accuracy, they may have been working from memory, or misread the text. There is nothing significant to conclude from that.

Brian

Toto

There is a Textual Commentary on the Gospel of Mark by Wieland Wilker online (large pdf file.) It is noted that there are manuscripts of Mark that change carpenter to son of a carpenter. But

This might appear to be typical apologetic harmonizing, but Michael Turton's comments on this verse point out that this passage makes the most sense if the inhabitants of Nazareth are being sarcastic:

Chili

He better not be a carpenter because carpenters are known to be sinners in that all is created in sin (by way of 'the stand in the rout') and so Joseph was the wily carpenter who's cross Jesus carried. I actually think he was a sheep rancher with 12 shepherds to take care of his flock but that does not sound right either because his shepherds were in disarray when Christ was born unto him.

To call Jesus a carpenter is to call him as sinner and that could never be.

aa5874

But did not you say all you can do is speculate? You cannot therefore claim as a fact that Origen's statement was a factual error.

People making mistakes today, or yesterday cannot show that your statement about Origen is true.

It must be significant that Origen claimed that Jesus was NOT EVER described as a carpenter in all the current Gospels in the Church.

Origen appears to be aware of copies of gMark.

Origen appears to be aware that gMark is similar gMatthew in certain passages.

Origen referred to Joseph ( the supposed father of Jesus) as a carpenter.

Origen appears to be an authority on the teachings of the Church.

Celsus claimed Jesus was a carpenter and Origen DENIED that Jesus was EVER described as a carpenter in any current gospel in the Church.

You simply cannot show that Origen made a factual error. You can only speculate.

It is significant that Origen, up to the 3rd century, was NOT AWARE of Mark 6.3.

Brian63

I don't know that he made a factual error; I am only positing it as a reasonable and very viable possibility, in addition to the ones you are insisting on.

Brian

Brian63

In looking at that statement again, I did phrase it too strongly. I do not know it was a factual error, but I do consider it a very viable possibility (and more likely than other proposed explanations).

Brian

aa5874

You are just speculation or making assertions without suppling any evidence. You have no real reason for your claim other than it is possible.

It is a given that anything is possible without evidence.

Brian63

Egads man. The evidence is abundant that people make mistakes, and falsely state that certain books (even holy ones) say things that they do not actually say. Maybe that is all that happened. Maybe it was more, maybe it was not. We just do not have enough information to say either way. It is that simple.

Brian

aa5874

Well if all you had at the start was "maybe" why did you write this?

You must now agree that it may NOT have been an error by Origen when he wrote that in all the current gospels in the Churches Jesus was NOT described as a carpenter.

And further, you must now agree that there may be some significance to the claim by Origen since he may have VERIFIED the accuracy of his statement before he wrote it..