Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 04-25-2012, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logical

By the way, remember the Tunisian man who burned himself to death? No one gave a damn about him when he was alive. He was less than insignificant. But his death started a movement that involved millions of people and toppled several governments in the Middle East.

You knew the Tunisian man so people of antiquity knew Jesus.

I can see your logical fallacies from miles away.

The existence or non-existence of your Tunisian man has ZERO do with Jesus who has NO known evidence of existence.

outhouse · 04-25-2012, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Oral tradition?

yes

it was held in higher esteem then literature to the poor peasant jews who were the majority of the population.

Quote:

Paul allegedly converted within 3 years. He heard the stories directly from eyewitnesses.

of the 400,000 there who were talking about this. Everyone at the big show would have known about his. BUT how many were really there and witnessed it??

not many

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Paul firmly believes in the resurrection

a common theme in judaism, did or did not paul write 100% mythology about jesus?? I agree he did.

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but you are telling me Christianity was founded by a poor peasant who created a ruckus in the temple.

if this didnt happen, jesus would have never been martyred.

people filled in his legend after death, not during his lifetime.

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Did Peter, James and John tell Paul that Jesus had risen from the dead?

NO

I doubt they ever talking to paul, for all I know paul killed them as competition for his roman version. All kidding aside, i think paul used oral tradition for this. while paul was all mythology, he didnt create it all, and thus the historical core at the center

we dont know anything about these original real apostles, I wouldnt claim that.

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Were they lying? Hallucinating (all of them?)?

what do we know of the real apostles? only what the roman version were left with tells us that was heavily edited for content.

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Already, by Paul's time, the main point was that Jesus had conquered death.

Well thats mythology added to the legend that grew in oral tradition.

missing body? i dont think so. Just the right mythology at the right time.

outhouse · 04-25-2012, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

the jesus story revolves around a poor peasant traveling teacher who went up against the man [the romans] and was fighting the outrageous taxation and the corruption of jewish priest due to romans in the temple during passover

This was witnessed by 400,000 poor hard working jews who were already fed up with the oppression to the point of committing suicide by fighting the romans knowing they would be mowed over.

Thats quite the popularity due to one day of a heroic act against the powers that be with almost half a million witnesses.

Where are you getting your information from?

Monty Python's "Life of Brian"?

it beats the uneducated myther guesses, and more entertainment value !!! LOL

you'll have to be more specific if you want a valid rebuttle

aa5874 · 04-25-2012, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logical

To me, it's more plausible that Jesus was just a man whose story was exaggerated, than a deity who kept getting downgraded! The former possibility seems to match the general trend of myth-making.

Every body knows people believe all sorts of thing about the stories in the Bible but the next stage is the evidence. We know what you believe NOW it is time for evidence.

It is easy to say 'Jesus was this' and 'Jesus was that' but it is another thing to provide the sources.

We have sources that state Jesus was the Son of a Ghost and the Creator that walked on water, transfigued and resurrected.

What sources you have??? The same Bible??? You have got to be joking!!!

outhouse · 04-25-2012, 10:10 PM

Quote:

They didn't deify a host of would-be messiahs. Why this one?

excellent question really.

timing is huge on this, but more important is they deified anything with a pulse back then

supreme leaders, mortal men, were commonly deified. you just dont know because they all didnt become history like jesus overblown legend. but many did become lessor legends and we know them.

Id like to think jesus was fighting for the common hard working peasant and was seen by hundreds of thousands crucified at the hand of the brutal roman empire, he had original sayings and again with the timing.

this was a time when it was ripe for judaim to expand into the gentile population.

In pauls time it was common for romasn to worship yahweh in synagogues

Kapyong · 04-26-2012, 02:46 AM

Gday,

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

This was witnessed by 400,000 poor hard working jews who were already fed up with the oppression to the point of committing suicide by fighting the romans knowing they would be mowed over.

Thats quite the popularity due to one day of a heroic act against the powers that be with almost half a million witnesses.

I don't know you well, so not sure if that is irony/sarcasm.

So -
Where is the evidence of 400,000 witnesses?
How many 1st hand witness accounts can you cite for us?

The actual number of 1st-hand witnesses apparently amounts to 2 :
* Paul claims of visions of Jesus
* 2 Peter claims of visions of Jesus

Then we have a few 3rd hand claims of witnesses from years later.

I guess your claims were sarcasm - 400,000 witnesses?

K.

outhouse · 04-26-2012, 04:39 AM

Quote:

400,000 witnesses?

a riot in the temple if it had happened would have been seen or heard by thousands.

placing jesus crucifiction near a entry way to the city would have seen more

something you may or may not know is there is such a thing as direct and indirect witnesses, this would have been all the buzz at said event. enough so that YOUR still argueing about the event 2000 years later

MrMacSon · 04-26-2012, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

400,000 witnesses?

a riot in the temple if it had happened would have been seen or heard by thousands.

placing jesus crucifiction near a entry way to the city would have seen more (if it happened)

something you may or may not know is there is such a thing as direct and indirect witnesses, this would have been all the buzz at said event [if said event happened]. enough so that you're still arguing about the event 2000 years later

The last sentence is a non-sequitur fallacy - the fact there is argument about the events being alleged does not mean they happened.

Grog · 04-26-2012, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Oral tradition?

yes

it was held in higher esteem then literature to the poor peasant jews who were the majority of the population.

of the 400,000 there who were talking about this. Everyone at the big show would have known about his. BUT how many were really there and witnessed it??

not many

a common theme in judaism, did or did not paul write 100% mythology about jesus?? I agree he did.

if this didnt happen, jesus would have never been martyred.

people filled in his legend after death, not during his lifetime.

NO

I doubt they ever talking to paul, for all I know paul killed them as competition for his roman version. All kidding aside, i think paul used oral tradition for this. while paul was all mythology, he didnt create it all, and thus the historical core at the center

we dont know anything about these original real apostles, I wouldnt claim that.

what do we know of the real apostles? only what the roman version were left with tells us that was heavily edited for content.

Quote:

Already, by Paul's time, the main point was that Jesus had conquered death.

Well thats mythology added to the legend that grew in oral tradition.

missing body? i dont think so. Just the right mythology at the right time.

Ok, so we are back where we started: you're making stuff up.

Logical · 04-26-2012, 06:19 AM

It's hard to discuss this when we're not clear on what everyone's claiming. There are two possible mythological theories I can think of:

- A historical Jesus never existed and Paul and others invented him.

- A historical Jesus never existed and the early followers never invented him or claimed that he existed. Instead they believed in a spiritual Jesus. But later subsequent followers invented the historical Jesus.

IF one of the two is true and I must choose between them, I actually find the first one more plausible, merely because the early writings of Paul seem to talk about a historical Jesus.

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04-26-2012, 06:19 AM	#110
Logical Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: USA Posts: 802	It's hard to discuss this when we're not clear on what everyone's claiming. There are two possible mythological theories I can think of: - A historical Jesus never existed and Paul and others invented him. - A historical Jesus never existed and the early followers never invented him or claimed that he existed. Instead they believed in a spiritual Jesus. But later subsequent followers invented the historical Jesus. IF one of the two is true and I must choose between them, I actually find the first one more plausible, merely because the early writings of Paul seem to talk about a historical Jesus.

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