Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Madkins007 · 10-20-2003, 09:37 PM

What, exactly IS salvation, other than 'being saved from the consequences of your sin"?

It is turning your life over to God, recognizing that He is your creator and trying to live a life led by His spirit (being born of the spirit, etc. so often discussed in the Bible).

Is perfection required? No, but what choices you make and why seem to be important. Are you making choices consistant with your understanding of God, and doing so because of your love and respect for Him as your creator and Lord? Do your actions and life reflect your belief in this matter?

By this definition, ANYONE who tries to live by their understanding of the nature of God has a crack at salvation. The Bible suggests that there is something in us that looks for god, that there are some standards we feel within us. I suspect that the more you try to live by those ideals, the closer you come to understanding god, and the closer you come to god's standards.

Yahzi · 10-21-2003, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Madkins007
It is turning your life over to God, recognizing that He is your creator and trying to live a life led by His spirit (being born of the spirit, etc. so often discussed in the Bible).

Why does salvation from my sins require me to surrender my free will? What sins am I being saved from, anyway? Because even though I have made my share of mistakes, I've never done anything that even remotely warrants going to Hell. Sure, a few people owe me a good kick in the head, but what have I done to deserve an eternity of fire?

Quote:

Are you making choices consistant with your understanding of God, and doing so because of your love and respect for Him as your creator and Lord?

No, I am making choices consistant with my understanding of the real world, and doing so becauseof my love and respect for my fellow man. The bum down the street needs my help: I figure God can get along fine without me. Are you implying otherwise? Are you implying God is so petty that my failure to bend my knee to him at every oppourtunity will somehow cause him harm? 'Cause really, I got my hands full with the people right here in front of me, and they look like they need help a lot more than God does.

Quote:

The Bible suggests that there is something in us that looks for god, that there are some standards we feel within us.

You must read a different Bible than the one I have. Mine is all about how jealous God is, and how even his chosen people quickly fall to worshipping golden calves and whatnot everytime God turns his back. Which he does quite often.

As for standards we feel within us, yes, the Bible recognizes those, and then promptly tries to squash them. The normal impulse we have towards kindess and compassion is routinely flouted by commands to stone people for picking up sticks, for being born gay, for making love, for wearing polyester blends, etc. Even Jesus says we have to hate our families. What could be more innate than love for our families? And Jesus says we must hate them.

sakrilege · 10-21-2003, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Madkins007
It is turning your life over to God, recognizing that He is your creator and trying to live a life led by His spirit (being born of the spirit, etc. so often discussed in the Bible).

But how can someone do this if they have never heard of god or the bible? What about the generations of native Americans that lived before the Europeans arrived? The generations of Asians and others who did not know of the bible? Are they in hell?

lpetrich · 10-21-2003, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Madkins007
It is turning your life over to God, recognizing that He is your creator and trying to live a life led by His spirit (being born of the spirit, etc. so often discussed in the Bible). ...

Meaning that you stay in bed all day and let Mr. G. rain food down on your.

Yelnik McGwawa · 10-21-2003, 05:13 AM

I've asked this to some of my fundementalist friends and the standard answer I get from them is that it is the person's fault if they have never heard of Christianity and, therefore, are going to hell. I don't know why they think this, but that's the answer I get.

lpetrich · 10-21-2003, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yelnik McGwawa
I've asked this to some of my fundementalist friends and the standard answer I get from them is that it is the person's fault if they have never heard of Christianity and, therefore, are going to hell. I don't know why they think this, but that's the answer I get.

Even if they had lived before Jesus Christ was born? Good Grief!

CJD · 10-21-2003, 12:44 PM

What follows is a brief synopsis of what the historic Church would say to the OP. Note that I probably will not argue for any of these points beyond this post. My intent is merely to present what has not been presented thus far.

Firstly, however, we must leave-off demarcating exactly what kind of other-worldly judgment folks might receive. The question in the OP does not necessarily include a belief in an eternal hellfire for human beings, though it does require a belief in some sort of judgment following the grave.

That said, no one yet (it seems to me) has offered anything resembling a historic Christian response. The closest option in the OP is number 3:

Quote:

Those ignorant of Christianity are judged on some other criterion, such as works . . .

To which the Queen of Swords added:

Quote:

I wonder what sort of works are sufficient? Does a tribesman have to make a special effort to feed, clothe and shelter people not related to him? Or is it enough to simply lead a good and law-abiding life with one's family?

Moreover, I think there's a verse in the bible about all our good deeds being as filthy rags. So if the above criterion is the one employed in letting people into heaven, I'd like to know what makes one rag less filthy than the other.

Let's look briefly at what Saint Paul wrote concerning this:

Quote:

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

So, then, after establishing his premise in the first chapter that all people without exception fail to acknowledge the Creator, he moves on in chapter 2 (vv.14�16) to discuss the predicament of those who were not specifically given a clear revelation of God's requirements from Moses to the Christ.

No one, according to the text and as the Queen pointed out, has any works that are worth more than filthy rags (cf. Augustine's "splendid vices"). Those who "by nature do the things in the law" are those who do not resist the universal presence of moral standards (sanctioned by society or no). Such standards are, of course, understood in different cultures with differing degrees of clarity. Nonetheless, the apostle writes that these people's own thoughts or consciences accuse or excuse them depending on each of their own individual performances. The problem is, according to the text no one's performance will be up to par.

Thus, the xian response is "Yes, those ignorant of Christianity are judged on . . . works�and they will fail everytime."

You see, those "unfortunate souls born in a time and/or place where knowledge of Christianity . . . is non-existent" are really not unfortunate, because they are not really innocent. If, however, the text portrayed them as innocent, then the text would also suggest the obvious: innocent people need no salvation. Christ didn't die for them; when they die, they go straight into the Lord's presence. Problem is folks, no one is innocent.

Whatever problems milk-toasts might have with such a concept, Paul clearly had no scruples declaring that all people are without excuse, "for [God's] invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made," &co.

Regards,

CJD

lpetrich · 10-21-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CJD
What follows is a brief synopsis of what the historic Church would say to the OP. ...

You see, those "unfortunate souls born in a time and/or place where knowledge of Christianity . . . is non-existent" are really not unfortunate, because they are not really innocent. .... Problem is folks, no one is innocent.

Whatever problems milk-toasts might have with such a concept, Paul clearly had no scruples declaring that all people are without excuse, "for [God's] invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made," &co.

Except that only Paul seems to know this.

Those who worshipped other deities had never thought of themselves as rejecting the One True God; nobody ever said "I prefer worshipping Zeus / Amon-Ra / Marduk / Brahma / ... instead of the One True God".

Madkins007 · 10-21-2003, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Yahzi
Why does salvation from my sins require me to surrender my free will? What sins am I being saved from, anyway? Because even though I have made my share of mistakes, I've never done anything that even remotely warrants going to Hell. Sure, a few people owe me a good kick in the head, but what have I done to deserve an eternity of fire?

Interesting slant on what I wrote. I never said a thing about becoming a zombie slave, just trying to live by God's principles. it is still incumbant on us to continue making choices, and we can make good or bad choices, just like before 'slavation'.

Sin, in the Bible, is that which seperates you from God, that which hurts your relationship with him. It is not picking up sticks on the Sabbath- it is the disobediance in your heart (as the actual passage just before the sticks incident clearly describes).

Hell, in the Bible, is also not quite what some fundies have claimed. It is a place where God is not, and that is about it. If you choose to live apart from God, then this is where you choose to live. The 'fire' imagery is a common metaphor for judgement and cleansing.

No, I am making choices consistant with my understanding of the real world, and doing so becauseof my love and respect for my fellow man. The bum down the street needs my help: I figure God can get along fine without me. Are you implying otherwise? Are you implying God is so petty that my failure to bend my knee to him at every oppourtunity will somehow cause him harm? 'Cause really, I got my hands full with the people right here in front of me, and they look like they need help a lot more than God does.

Living your life according to God's principles IS helping others- that is what the 'love others' bit is all about. The Bible says that REAL religion is helping the orphans and widows. You ARE doing God's work in those acts- that is why Christianity has sponsered so many hospitals, orphanages, food banks, etc. around the world.

Working in church is, in itself, meaningless. Praising God is a natural result of our understanding of Who and What He is, but NOT the real WORK of living a God-directed life.

If you are really living to help others, you are already on the right track!

You must read a different Bible than the one I have. Mine is all about how jealous God is, and how even his chosen people quickly fall to worshipping golden calves and whatnot everytime God turns his back. Which he does quite often.

As for standards we feel within us, yes, the Bible recognizes those, and then promptly tries to squash them. The normal impulse we have towards kindess and compassion is routinely flouted by commands to stone people for picking up sticks, for being born gay, for making love, for wearing polyester blends, etc. Even Jesus says we have to hate our families. What could be more innate than love for our families? And Jesus says we must hate them. [/QUOTE]

I am sorry you are reading a badly abridged Bible that lacks the full context of the examples you are mentioning. If you are interested, i can probably send you one that is complete!

The guy picking up stones was condemned not for picking up stones but for blatantly disobeying God. Being born gay is not a grounds for any special bad treatment (acting on it may be a different matter, but even then, liars are counted in the same company). Sex is a whole 'nother topic.

And the Bible does not call for us to hate our families, just that we should not allow them to stand in the way of our fellowship with God. Indeed, in other places, family love is strongly commended.

Queen of Swords · 10-21-2003, 10:53 PM

CJD, please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that Paul says that no matter where they are born, which culture they grew up in and what religion they are taught, people should be able to see that the One True God is the Judaeo-Christian one.

How, precisely, do they know this? If a Hindu child is taught the story of Ganesha's creation, does a little voice in the back of her head shout, "No way! This is a lie! The only true god is the god of the bible"?

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10-20-2003, 09:37 PM	#11
Madkins007 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Nebraska Posts: 591	What, exactly IS salvation, other than 'being saved from the consequences of your sin"? It is turning your life over to God, recognizing that He is your creator and trying to live a life led by His spirit (being born of the spirit, etc. so often discussed in the Bible). Is perfection required? No, but what choices you make and why seem to be important. Are you making choices consistant with your understanding of God, and doing so because of your love and respect for Him as your creator and Lord? Do your actions and life reflect your belief in this matter? By this definition, ANYONE who tries to live by their understanding of the nature of God has a crack at salvation. The Bible suggests that there is something in us that looks for god, that there are some standards we feel within us. I suspect that the more you try to live by those ideals, the closer you come to understanding god, and the closer you come to god's standards.

10-21-2003, 05:13 AM	#15
Yelnik McGwawa Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Risotto 'n' Rosemary Posts: 685	I've asked this to some of my fundementalist friends and the standard answer I get from them is that it is the person's fault if they have never heard of Christianity and, therefore, are going to hell. I don't know why they think this, but that's the answer I get.

10-21-2003, 07:56 PM	#19
Madkins007 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Nebraska Posts: 591	Originally posted by Yahzi Why does salvation from my sins require me to surrender my free will? What sins am I being saved from, anyway? Because even though I have made my share of mistakes, I've never done anything that even remotely warrants going to Hell. Sure, a few people owe me a good kick in the head, but what have I done to deserve an eternity of fire? Interesting slant on what I wrote. I never said a thing about becoming a zombie slave, just trying to live by God's principles. it is still incumbant on us to continue making choices, and we can make good or bad choices, just like before 'slavation'. Sin, in the Bible, is that which seperates you from God, that which hurts your relationship with him. It is not picking up sticks on the Sabbath- it is the disobediance in your heart (as the actual passage just before the sticks incident clearly describes). Hell, in the Bible, is also not quite what some fundies have claimed. It is a place where God is not, and that is about it. If you choose to live apart from God, then this is where you choose to live. The 'fire' imagery is a common metaphor for judgement and cleansing. No, I am making choices consistant with my understanding of the real world, and doing so becauseof my love and respect for my fellow man. The bum down the street needs my help: I figure God can get along fine without me. Are you implying otherwise? Are you implying God is so petty that my failure to bend my knee to him at every oppourtunity will somehow cause him harm? 'Cause really, I got my hands full with the people right here in front of me, and they look like they need help a lot more than God does. Living your life according to God's principles IS helping others- that is what the 'love others' bit is all about. The Bible says that REAL religion is helping the orphans and widows. You ARE doing God's work in those acts- that is why Christianity has sponsered so many hospitals, orphanages, food banks, etc. around the world. Working in church is, in itself, meaningless. Praising God is a natural result of our understanding of Who and What He is, but NOT the real WORK of living a God-directed life. If you are really living to help others, you are already on the right track! You must read a different Bible than the one I have. Mine is all about how jealous God is, and how even his chosen people quickly fall to worshipping golden calves and whatnot everytime God turns his back. Which he does quite often. As for standards we feel within us, yes, the Bible recognizes those, and then promptly tries to squash them. The normal impulse we have towards kindess and compassion is routinely flouted by commands to stone people for picking up sticks, for being born gay, for making love, for wearing polyester blends, etc. Even Jesus says we have to hate our families. What could be more innate than love for our families? And Jesus says we must hate them. [/QUOTE] I am sorry you are reading a badly abridged Bible that lacks the full context of the examples you are mentioning. If you are interested, i can probably send you one that is complete! The guy picking up stones was condemned not for picking up stones but for blatantly disobeying God. Being born gay is not a grounds for any special bad treatment (acting on it may be a different matter, but even then, liars are counted in the same company). Sex is a whole 'nother topic. And the Bible does not call for us to hate our families, just that we should not allow them to stand in the way of our fellowship with God. Indeed, in other places, family love is strongly commended.

10-21-2003, 10:53 PM	#20
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	CJD, please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that Paul says that no matter where they are born, which culture they grew up in and what religion they are taught, people should be able to see that the One True God is the Judaeo-Christian one. How, precisely, do they know this? If a Hindu child is taught the story of Ganesha's creation, does a little voice in the back of her head shout, "No way! This is a lie! The only true god is the god of the bible"?

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