Infidelettante

My point is that deities arise from our desires.

JT

Cubeless Academian

Because deities exist only in our minds? or because our desires actually cause things to come into existence in the outside world? If the latter, why does it work for deities and not unicorns?

Invisible Insanity

Hey truthie, just wanted to reiterate what everybody has said. I am an ex-christian. I get at least 4 knock an my door a year by Jehovah's witnesses and by Mormons. The Mormons I must admit are much nicer than the Jehovah's Witnesses, but both assume that I am wrong or lack something because I am not one of them. The point is Wiccans, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists etc... do not come around to bother nor do they believe for the most part that there isn't any single one way to live your life. Of the varoius polytheists and eastern religious people I have talked to, it has been a positive experience in which there is a substantial amount of skepticism in each religion and is very personal to each person. The Abrahamic religions are very anti-human, anti-skepticism and anti-intellectual endeavors. The other religions seem to not care too much what science says and aren't really affected by it either.

Al

NiceWookie

No one is required to beleive in diety(s) or the supernatural in order to be a Pagan or a Wiccan. I'm a Pagan who leans towards Wicca and I beleive Gods/Godesses are psycological constructs and that "explainations" for magic can be found in the study of Psycology.

It does me no harm and does not lessen my perspective if another pagan believes these concepts are rooted in the supernatural. I have yet to meet a supernaturalist pagan who cared to critisize what my perspectives are as well. It could be said that the co-existence of opposing concepts is neither a crime nor a sin in Paganism, rather it is celebrated.

I am unaware of any Abrahamic paths that would deem God a psycological construct and explain prayer in psycological terms. I am equal unware of Abrahamic paths that would allow such a veiw point to co-exist with it's conceptual opposite.

Perhaps the diversty, the allowance of dissent, the lack of prolytzing, lack of a central authority/poltical will, and the fact that no supernaturalistic sky parents are required in paganism make it more akin and less distasteful to some atheists. I stress some here because I have encountered a few that were totally hostile to supernatural as well as non-supernatural Pagan veiwpoints.

Ojuice5001

Yes, and as a believer in Jupiter, I find this quite insulting.

I think that while this might explain the use of Zeus and Apollo's names, it doesn't explain the Venus of Millendorf. That's something that more actual pagans/New Agers take seriously, so the joke would be more ambiguous. Stranger still is any kind of use of the word "pagan." Although it's still possible at that point, because "pagan" is sometimes used (by Christians) inclusively of atheists. But this argument becomes impossible to make when you consider the pentacle. Did you actually check out Rof.com ? A pentacle is visible from the main page. The pentacle clearly is an instance of catering to actual pagans; IMO, no one adorns themselves with a pentacle unless they identify as pagan.

That certainly does explain the lack of serious scholars arguing against the Roman gods. More exactly, there aren't scholarly attackers of the Roman gods because there aren't scholarly defenders of the Roman gods. Who is going to write these papers? Sociologists are likely to know the extent of pagan beliefs, but not to comment on their truth. Professional theologians are uninclined to even ask the question of whether polytheism is reasonable. (It is rather interesting that so many other alternatives to traditional monotheism are popular among liberal heretics, but not polytheism. And as I said, I don't think they are giving it a chance.) And paranormal debunkers prefer to debunk pseudo-science (that is, the stuff that's presented as scientific). In general, they ignore everything less empirical than a ghost. For instance, a lot of people believe that certain numbers are good or bad luck, but no one attempts to disprove this idea. Most pagan beliefs are much the same, no matter how many pagans there are.

In sum, there's no academic discipline that has both the function and the inclination to attack the belief in the Roman gods. And it's also true that most academic circles don't hear much about Jupiter-believers anyway.

But it is hard to tell the boundary between mockery, affectionate feeling without belief, and playful affirmation of belief in the gods. I'm saying that while the attitude you describe is common, it is an ignorant attitude (given that believers in the old gods do exist). And I don't think ROF and EvolveFish are so ignorant that they don't realize this.

truthie

Well, I use the term neopagan.


True. To me, it seems atheist hypocrisy:

"We are atheists (no god(s)) and this is an atheist site but go ahead and buy the earth goddess!"

Don't get it...

T.

truthie

Good point. But well, some people may call themselves ‘atheist’ as much as they want. However, by the explanation/definition of atheism, I would not consider them atheists since truly they are not atheists at all.

T.

Cubeless Academian

Hey, I believe in Jupiter too. I just happen to think he's an enormous ball of hydrogen and helium who has no brain and no penis and has nothing to do with electrical storms on Earth. Just my opinion, of course.

You have a point. Not all atheist uses of pagan imagery are intended as a joke. There seems to be some genuine sympathy for the pagan viewpoint. Maybe pagan deities, being more nature-centered than those of other religions, can be seen as symbols of the natural world and our need to respect it. Maybe an atheist with Earth Goddess merch is trying to say, "Don't worship some imaginary God in the sky; instead, respect nature."

Maybe. I don't know any of the atheists who buy this stuff, so I don't really know.

I know a few atheists who wear a pentacle just to piss off Christians. In fact, maybe paganism is more acceptable to some atheists simply because it's less acceptable to many Christians. Many Christians find a pentagram to be offensive in a way that other non-Christian religious symbols are not.

I think you'd be surprised how many not-so-ignorant people don't realize that believers in Zeus exist. I mean, they know some pagans use the names of Greek gods, but they assume it's not meant literally. And, indeed, many pagans do seem to treat their gods mainly as symbols. Those who actually believe in twelve naked pranksters who live on a mountain in Greece are, I suspect, a distinct minority.

truthie

How are the Greek gods better? How do you base that belief? Have you read Oedipus and other stories regarding the Greek gods?

It is like seeing a liberal Christian transforming their deity into a good one just as transforming the Greek gods into good deities, when the god(s) have never been quite nice. Though, people can make whatever they want out of their god(s).


I am not sure about that now.
This is the way I am seeing it.
What upsets atheists about religions is mostly how the religious people act. If the Hindus, Sikhs, Neopagans etc were the annoying folk, then the atheist would attack those religions.
So, practically, there is no room for skepticism here, right?
The irrationality of supernatural beliefs does not matter.
And since the Hindus, Zoroastrians, Sikhs, Sufi, etc, have not killed or “done anything wrong" on the name of their deity, then these religions are “valid�? for many atheists.
A-ha, well, since I prefer rationalism/naturalism, then I tend to have a problem with all religions, not because of the actions of the religious but the wacky paranormal beliefs.
Sorry but in the Wiccan boards I was member of, I encountered really mentally disabled people and how the supernatural beliefs slightly gave birth to their mental disorders.
It freaked me out.
To me, all religions cause some kind of harm.

The historical/supernatural claims that Wiccan books make and well, since polytheism is older then it must be better.
The "older is better" fallacy. The fact that it was another religion as the others, it offered community, fulfillment, emotion, supernatural connection, majesty-> though, rituals seem to be done only for the sheer estheticism nowadays. I thought "maybe this is the one."

I would have still deconverted. I was lucky that what TySixtus said occurred. Everything crumbled.

If there is no proof for the existence of the Christian god, then why would the Greek gods exist? And if there is no proof for the existence of the Greek gods then, where is the proof for afterlife, spells, magic, etc?

Wicca/Wiccan books claims so many things; magic works, you are capable of seeing the gods, etc. and I was so stupid that after leaving former religions I should have realized that all religions were all based on beliefs that you had to believe through faith. Religions present claims that present no evidence whatsoever. The books are manipulative, they are like self-help guides.
You got a problem, this is the solution and your life will be better since this religion is the true one and will satisfy your life. Persuading you to believe in things that make you feel good so you think that the religion is necessary.

It was honesty. I remember when Starboy wrote that for him atheism was based on honesty and I thought about that, about being honest to myself, to people and to the world. Do the gods exist or do I wish them to be true?
Do spells work as Wiccan books claim or do I wish them to be true?
Till I realized that religions are not based on honesty at all.
The deal with magic was something that I battled a lot with. And well, isn’t the ability of performing magic attractive? Why did I believe that it really worked? Era told me about a chapter on the book “Why people believe Weird things�? by Michael Shermer. The ch. “How our thinking goes wrong�? it talked about synchronicity and coincidence.
When the lack of proof for the existence of the gods crumbled, the rest of the supernatural community went with it.
Yes, my thinking was wrong.
The transition was hard it still is, when I look at the fact that many people believe in the supernatural, I think that maybe they are right. Perhaps atheists just don’t want to open their minds or they lack some kind of perceptive ability that religious people have.
I would say that I was looking for the truth in a religion and the true religion.
I analyzed all the crap that I have done with all the religions that I have followed and I found out that they were copies of one another (the same), everything (the validity of the supernatural) was in my mind, they weren’t facts it was faith.
Surely, I could join a religion so it "makes me feel good", but you know, I feel way freer and happier with atheism now. There is stronger proof for the evidence of naturalism only weak evidence counts against it, to me the truth, reason matters I get to appreciate the natural world for what it is, accept life's ups and downs and rely on myself. I can formulate my own opinions regarding religions and again, it was honesty.

Also, I read Baggini’s Atheism and draw interesting conclusions. Now, I see that it is sad that I had to rely on myth and superstition in order to feel good with my life and myself, think that I was Wise (Wicca: Craft of the Wise, misconception) or to see the material word as too crappy and shallow, therefore the supernatural must exist because it is cooler and nice. (Fantasy-proner)
Religious attitudes annoyed me too, the hypocrisy, the self-promotion, “common sense objections�? the “what makes a Wiccan a Wiccan, a Christian a Christian, a Muslim a Muslim?�? The arrogance. “I have been in this path more years than you, therefore I am holier and wiser…than thou!�? :boohoo:

Well, as I read the only crime for becoming Wiccan is being a teenage girl. I wonder if this is a phase among American teens.

T.

Cubeless Academian

That's bullshit, at least as far as Hinduism are concerned. Hinduism has been responsible for the caste system and the barbaric practice of sati (burning widows with their dead husbands), and Hindu-vs-Muslim violence continues to be a problem on the Subcontinent.