Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wily Coyote · 09-22-2004, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegdin

i watched passion of the christ for the first time tonight. i watched it while getting ready for work. didnt feel i needed to pay too much attention to it cause ive heard the story already. well anyway,,,while watching judas betray jesus something occured to me. christians claim we have free will. however, jesus told judas that he was going to betray him. this pretty much negated judas' free will. my question i wish to pose to theists is: if jesus told judas that he was going to betray him, wouldnt that take away all responsibility from judas for his betrayal and eventual suicide? i think that it would. not only is judas' actions predetermined by god, he is even made aware of them.

anyway, just a thought. something to get another perspective on the old gods will vs free will argument.

Here's a radical notion: What if Jesus recruited Judas to turn him over? For Jesus to fulfill his destiny someone had to do it. Suppose Judas was simply carrying out his master's instructions? Consider that after the Last Supper, Jesus lingered in the Garden of Gethsemane just long enough for Judas to fetch the Roman guards to seize him. Jesus commanded Judas to "Do what you must do," which has a new meaning in light of this possibility. And Judas kissed the cheek of the man he'd betrayed. What an odd act if Judas is trying to distance himself from the rabble-rouser the Romans and the Priests saw in Jesus.

As for Judas' suicide, well...what else do you do when your master has died, but join him in death?

Nectaris · 09-22-2004, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weltall

Yeah, you've got the right idea. There's another interesting angle other than the free-will one as well: As the story goes, Judas' betrayal is needed in order for Jesus to get nailed up, die and rise again after three (whoops, two) days yada yada. Anyhow, given that Judas supposedly spends eternity in hell as a necessary condition of the redemption process, you really think believers should be worshipping him since he's the one who really sacrificed something. Just a thought.

Just curious, there was a discussion on alt.atheism a while back about whether there is biblical support for Judas being in hell or not, and I don't remember if any consensus was reached. I know Dante wrote that Judas is the centerpiece in hell or somesuch--it's been awhile since I've read Dante. Is there any biblical passage that specifically states Judas is in hell?

I apologize in advance for my ignorance of the NT.

Dave

Derec · 09-22-2004, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wily Coyote

Here's a radical notion: What if Jesus recruited Judas to turn him over?

Uhm, did you watch Last Temptation of Christ? That's exactly what happens in that movie.

UMoC

justsumner · 09-22-2004, 01:26 PM

Man that was one sad movie...gory enough though.

If Judas did, as Jesus claims in the Gospel of James "As he must, for being Judas he could not do other.."

and aqs Jesus had to die (as according to the NT) to answer for sin, then it would seem that Judas did only has he was supposed to. Thus defeating the free will of Xians and the "betrayal" of Jesus.

at least it sure seems that way to me. :huh:

Wily Coyote · 09-22-2004, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UglyManOnCampus

Uhm, did you watch Last Temptation of Christ? That's exactly what happens in that movie.

UMoC

Didn't see that one. Lived in a small town at the time that had only one theater and by God, they wouldn't tolerate no blasphemy down there.

What a bunch of hicks...

Magdlyn · 09-23-2004, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UglyManOnCampus

Uhm, did you watch Last Temptation of Christ? That's exactly what happens in that movie.

UMoC

Jesus Christ Superstar as well.

There is no indication of Judas's afterlife accomodations in the 4 gospel narratives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by justsummer

If Judas did, as Jesus claims in the Gospel of James "As he must, for being Judas he could not do other.."

Jesus does not speak in GJames. Can you tell me what verse you are trying to quote?

Intelligitimate · 09-23-2004, 05:43 AM

John 13:2 seems to suggest Judas was possessed by a demon. But then, Judas is portrayed in a much more negative light overall in John (John calls him a thief, 12:4-6).

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09-22-2004, 01:26 PM	#14
justsumner Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: 44'32N 69' 40W Posts: 374	Man that was one sad movie...gory enough though. If Judas did, as Jesus claims in the Gospel of James "As he must, for being Judas he could not do other.." and aqs Jesus had to die (as according to the NT) to answer for sin, then it would seem that Judas did only has he was supposed to. Thus defeating the free will of Xians and the "betrayal" of Jesus. at least it sure seems that way to me. :huh:

09-23-2004, 05:43 AM	#17
Intelligitimate Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 464	John 13:2 seems to suggest Judas was possessed by a demon. But then, Judas is portrayed in a much more negative light overall in John (John calls him a thief, 12:4-6).

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