Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Onias · 02-11-2013, 06:07 PM

aa,
Ok, then do you think Mark 10:45 is a later interpolation?

Mark 10:45 "for even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Sheshbazzar · 02-11-2013, 06:18 PM

Didn't ask me but I vote YES. I believe the part after 'serve' was tacked on latter.

Onias · 02-11-2013, 06:33 PM

I agree!

aa5874 · 02-11-2013, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

aa,
Ok, then do you think Mark 10:45 is a later interpolation?

Mark 10:45 "for even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

A ransom has nothing to do with Atonement of Sins.

Mark 10.45 does NOT state that Jesus would abolish the Laws of the God of Moses for the Atonement of Sins or that the Laws of God were cursed because Jesus was killed and resurrected.

Galatians 3:13 KJV

Quote:

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written , Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

Mark 10

Quote:

33 Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man shall be delivered to the chief of priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death, and deliver him to the Gentiles,

34 And they shall mock him, and spit upon him, and scourge him, and put him to death, and after three days he shall rise.

The short gMark ENDS at the resurrection.

The story is complete.

Jesus was Delivered up by the Jews, he was Killed and he Resurrected.

The Prophecies of gMark's Jesus has been fulifilled.

Mark 16.6

Quote:

You seek Jesus the Nazarene who was crucified; he has risen, he is not here: see the place where they laid him.

angelo · 02-11-2013, 10:34 PM

That's where the shortened version of gMark ends. There's no sighting of the resurrected messiah by anyone as the other gospels describe. It shows the story to be an evolving tale of hearsay and legend until gJohn makes him out to be god himself.

aa5874 · 02-12-2013, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

That's where the shortened version of gMark ends. There's no sighting of the resurrected messiah by anyone as the other gospels describe. It shows the story to be an evolving tale of hearsay and legend until gJohn makes him out to be god himself.

I am extremely delighted that you have recognised that there was NO sighting of the Resurrected Jesus in the EARLIEST story of Jesus in the Canon--the short gMark.

That is the single most important observation.

When the visitors went to the burial site of Jesus they did NOT find the dead body of Jesus and some-one in white clothes told them Jesus was Risen.

All writings in the Canon that claim there were sightings of the Resurrected Jesus were composed AFTER the short gMark.

1. The Long gMark has SIGHTINGS of the Resurrected Jesus--Mark 16.9-20

2. gMatthew has SIGHTINGS of the Resurrected Jesus--Matthew 28

3. gLuke has SIGHTINGS of the Resurrected Jesus--Luke 24

4. gJohn has SIGHTINGS of the Resurrected Jesus--John 20 & 21

5. Acts of the Apostles has SIGHTINGS of the Resurrected Jesus--Acts 1

6. The Pauline letters have SIGHTINGS of the Resurrected Jesus--1 Cor. 15

The short gMark has ZERO sightings.

The Pauline writer has a List with OVER 500 SIGHTINGS of the Resurrected Jesus.

1 Cor.15

Quote:

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried , and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remainunto this present, but some are fallen asleep .

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8And last of all he was seen of me...

The author of the short gMark did NOT know that Jesus died for OUR Sins, did NOT know that resurrected Jesus authorised the disciples to preach the Gospel and did NOT know that there were OVER 500 sightings of the Resurrected Jesus.

the short gMark 16

Quote:

You seek Jesus the Nazarene who was crucified; he has risen, he is not here: see the place where they laid him.

7 But go, tell his disciples, especially Peter, that he goes before you into Galilee: there you shall see him, as he said to you.

8 And going out they fled from the sepulcher; for trembling and astonishment had seized them; and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid.

The short gMark is the earliest story of Jesus in the Entire Canon--All the other authors of Gospels and the Pauline writer invented Sightings of the Resurrected Jesus.

angelo · 02-12-2013, 10:26 PM

Just like evolution. Simplicity evolves into complexity. The tale was helped along by the turmoil under Roman rule, many were seeking a messiah to deliver them from the Roman yoke. Anyone who claimed to be that messiah even though delusional gathered some disciples.
If people are given hope when the chips are down, there will always be some suckers who will fall for it. Mormonism, Scientology and quack medical cures are evidence of this.

aa5874 · 02-12-2013, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Just like evolution. Simplicity evolves into complexity. The tale was helped along by the turmoil under Roman rule, many were seeking a messiah to deliver them from the Roman yoke. Anyone who claimed to be that messiah even though delusional gathered some disciples.
If people are given hope when the chips are down, there will always be some suckers who will fall for it. Mormonism, Scientology and quack medical cures are evidence of this.

Well, there were characters called Vespasian and Simon Barchocheba. They were considered actual Messianic rulers c 69-79 CE and c 133-135 CE

The Jesus story in the short gMark has nothing whatsoever to do with deliverance from the Roman Yoke.

The short Mark Jesus specifically told his disciples in private that he wanted the outsiders to REMAIN in Sin and specifically told his disciples NOT to tell the outsiders he was Christ.

See Mark 4 and Mark 9.

Not even the supposed disciples of Jesus really expected any deliverance from Jesus. They never really believed in the Jesus.

Judas betrayed him, Peter denied him and the rest of them Fled when Jesus was arrested.

The short gMark story is about the KILLING of Jesus, the Son of God, because of wicked evil Jews and that he would resurrect.

Essentially, the short gMark was written to explain the Fall of the Temple and the desolation of Jerusalem.

wordy · 02-13-2013, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Mark 4: 10-12 – “When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!” “

Such his interesting indeed. What exactly was
the secret that he preached to them in private?

aa5874 · 02-13-2013, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wordy

Quote:

Mark 4: 10-12 – “When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!” “

Such his interesting indeed. What exactly was
the secret that he preached to them in private?

Quote:

Mark 4: 10-12 – “When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,
“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!”

In the short gMark, the outsiders and the very disciples of Jesus NEVER understood what Jesus said but Jesus would only explain the parables to his disciples in private--NEVER to the outsiders--Never in the Public.

Essentially, the Jesus of the short gMark was NOT offering Salvation to the outsiders.

The secret message of the short gMark was that Jesus was NOT a Savior for the outsiders.

The short gMark Jesus DELIBERATELY spoke in parables ALL the time so that People would Remain in Sin.

Mark 4

Quote:

34 But without a parable spoke he not to them; but privately he explained all things to his disciples.

The authors of the Later Gospels and Pauline letters CHANGED the story found in the short gMark--the later authors made their Jesus a Universal Savior who came to earth to be the Sacrificial Lamb of God for Remission of Sins.--No such thing is in the short gMark.

In the short gMark, Jesus was Crucified because the Jews Rejected him as the Son of God and claimed he was a Blasphemer.

All writings in the Canon that claim Jesus Christ was a Universal Savior who gave his life as a Sacrificial Lamb for Remission of Sins was composed AFTER the short gMark.

[Mark 4

Quote:

.......But to those on the outside everything is said in parables..........otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!”

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-11-2013, 06:07 PM	#71
Onias Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Primary residence in New York State Posts: 231	aa, Ok, then do you think Mark 10:45 is a later interpolation? Mark 10:45 "for even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

02-11-2013, 06:18 PM	#72
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Didn't ask me but I vote YES. I believe the part after 'serve' was tacked on latter.

02-11-2013, 06:33 PM	#73
Onias Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Primary residence in New York State Posts: 231	I agree!

02-11-2013, 10:34 PM	#75
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	That's where the shortened version of gMark ends. There's no sighting of the resurrected messiah by anyone as the other gospels describe. It shows the story to be an evolving tale of hearsay and legend until gJohn makes him out to be god himself.

02-12-2013, 10:26 PM	#77
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	Just like evolution. Simplicity evolves into complexity. The tale was helped along by the turmoil under Roman rule, many were seeking a messiah to deliver them from the Roman yoke. Anyone who claimed to be that messiah even though delusional gathered some disciples. If people are given hope when the chips are down, there will always be some suckers who will fall for it. Mormonism, Scientology and quack medical cures are evidence of this.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.