Gamera

[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl]I find your level of distorting what I say frightening.

knowing and doing are too different things. Further Abraham was unique. I'll assert again in case you didn't hear me right (and you won't again), the ethics of pre-Christian civilization were barbaric, selfish and cruel. Classic culture had no interest in the rights of "foreigners." Period. You could basically do what you wanted to do with outsiders. That was their ethics. Now, did individuals like Abraham see through the ugliness of these selfish ethics. Yep. That isn't relevant to our discussion, since God was dealing with a nation at the time.

Yawn.

Who said I was looking forward to that state? Are you like a mind reader as well as a misinterpreter of posts?

I am asserting that. We would not be human if we didn't have free will. Further whatever existence we had I assert it wouldn't be worth living. It would be meaningless to do good because you could do nothing else.

Not my argument, nor that of Christianity, as I read it. Accepting the gospel already ends my alienation with God and my true self, and results in a new creation. It's OK if you don't agree with that, just don't mischaracterize it without bothering to read the texts at issue.

2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

Galatians 6:15 - For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Think about what Paul means by these verses and get back with me on your view of what you think Christians think about heaven.

Quetzalcoatl

I have? Where have I distorted what you said? You are justifying genocide. I have yet to see you say that Yahweh should not command his followers to murder babies. Now would be a good time to set the record straight.


You have being corrected on this yet you keep repeating it. Why is this?

I see, so there existed people who knew that murdering pregnant foreigners was wrong but instead of Yahweh recognizing and using people like this, he instead commanded his chosen people to run their swords through screaming toddlers.


I’m still waiting for you to challenge Yahweh as to why he commanded his followers to murder foreigners.

Now is your opportunity to clear up this misrepresentation. So are you saying that you find heaven reprehensible?

See below


You are asserting that it wouldn’t be worth living in heaven if we don’t have free will. You also asserted that evil is a logical consequence of free will. Hence heaven will contain evil and suffering. Maybe you should spend more time thinking about the consequences of your posts.

Furthermore what you are asserting is nonsense. I can do nothing else but breathe are you saying that breathing is pointless?

Furthermore are you saying that Yahweh’s existence is pointless? Do Yahweh and Yeshua do evil? We seem to have entities here that have free will and do no evil. Or are you saying that Yahweh, Yeshua and their Ghost have no free will?

This is all very confusing..

It varies according to the Christian. What’s your point?

So when Yeshua says he is going to prepare a place for his followers was he lying?

Where exactly did he get caught up to during his ascension?

Loomis

Shalem, the Ugaritic god of dusk (KTU 1.23).

Melchizedek was his king (Gen 14:18).

Psalm 110 could describe his birth because it mentions Melchizedek, his half-brother Shakhar (god of the dawn - listed as Helel’s dad in Isaiah 14), and the goddess Rahmay (Anat) – Shalem’s mum.

Loomis

Yahweh repents. So does the Son of Man (arguably the same character).

El by comparison, does not repent.

Loomis

Relax.

It never really happened.

EthnAlln

But the earliest Bible manuscripts are only from 800-900 AD. Still much younger than the Vedas. You have a double standard. And the Vedas ARE pre-Christian. Scholars agree on that, for a variety of reasons. Outside the Vedas, there are works that cite them and give their own date, to mention just one of the ways they can be dated. To describe what careful scholars have agreed on as "speculation" only avoids the issue. What you are saying is, the Christian manuscripts are earlier, no matter what the scholars think. That's not very cogent reasoning. Do you think Homer is post-Christian, or is it just "speculation" that he pre-dated Christ?

tonan22

You're absolutely right. That's why I am going to convert. To Islam. Because FAITH is FAITH, and it is necessary to accept Isalm on FAITH. You have shown me the error of my ways.

Just one sarcastic way to demonstrate that verifiable evidence is 100% more effective than blind faith.

Ubercat

FAITH is required for any religion to survive. If christians as a whole would apply their critical thinking to religion, the way they can use it for most other things, then christianity would vanish in very short order. No religion has ANY valid proof, so what a surprise that the mental virus would evolve the shell of faith, to protect it from the antibody of reason.

Why should FAITH be so important to your god anyway? He's the one who decides who has it and who doesn't, so what's the point of pretending that having it is OUR responsibility?

-Ubercat

Ubercat

How strange that you sit there, in your comfortable chair, in front of your monitor, in your expensive surroundings, judging us, while the endless drouts continue, the rain never comes, the fields never revive, and the people keep starving. How strange that your god continues to kill these people, despite the millions of daily prayers for their relief. Is your god starving them on purpose, so that he has even MORE excuses to condemn US?

-Ubercat

TomboyMom

I seem to have misunderstood you. When you said I took that to mean than this infancticide is justified because the babies are better off in heaven than on earth. Under this logic, the same would be true for you, wouldn't it? That's why I said that under YOUR standards, not mine, infanticide is justified. Or are you now saying that, by commanding his followers to murder hundreds of innocent babies and children, Yahweh acted wrongly? Or are you saying that it's moral for Yahweh to do this, and his followers under his command, but wrong when I do it?

Well that only goes to show that the bible is wildly inconsistent, and both pacifists and baby-killers can find their justification there, as both have done throughout history.

You don't? Should the Israelites then have disobeyed Yahweh's order to commit murder then? Which is it?
Yes, obedience to an order to be sure to murder ALL the toddlers, not just some of them. And obedience to an order to take ALL the virgins captive to keep for themselves, not just some of them. Was following this order right, or wrong?
It's not like Christians haven't committed the very same acts throughout history, with the same justification. Christians burned, raped and murdered their way across Europe and the Near East, stabbing little heathen babies on their way, all for the greater glory of Christ.
No, actually they're quite common. One of them is on the rampage in Africa right now.
Not Jesus but Yahweh. I'm pretty sure he's the only fictional character whoever wiped out all life on the planet, animal and vegetable, saving only 1 family and 2 of each non-acquatic animal: every person, every baby, every animal, every eco-system--everything. That takes the record for genocide and ecocide, I believe. Do you deny this?