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Old 11-13-2009, 08:26 AM   #11
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Jesus was apparently a traveling Jewish religious leader in the first century, who had at least 12 disciples including Peter, who came into conflict with the Jewish religious establishment and the Pharisees, and who was executed in Jerusalem by Pontius Pilate. Do you know any respected New Testament scholar who disagrees with any of those elements?
Depends on who one deems as respected, I suppose.
Someone with articles published in a peer-reviewed journal of Biblical studies, someone with a professorship at a university in Biblical studies, or at least someone with a Ph.D. in Biblical studies. I imagine there may be a few such people who disagree with those elements, people you can count on one hand.
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:32 AM   #12
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Depends on who one deems as respected, I suppose.
Someone with articles published in a peer-reviewed journal of Biblical studies, someone with a professorship at a university in Biblical studies, or at least someone with a Ph.D. in Biblical studies. I imagine there may be a few such people who disagree with those elements, people you can count on one hand.
Perhaps there are.

Of course, historical reality is not usually determined as the result of a popularity contest.

Maybe the minority opinion is correct, or at least, more correct.

How do we know?
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:33 AM   #13
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Someone with articles published in a peer-reviewed journal of Biblical studies, someone with a professorship at a university in Biblical studies, or at least someone with a Ph.D. in Biblical studies. I imagine there may be a few such people who disagree with those elements, people you can count on one hand.
Perhaps there are.

Of course, historical reality is not usually determined as the result of a popularity contest.

Maybe the minority opinion is correct, or at least, more correct.

How do we know?
You are absolutely right. The evidence is what matters the most in the end.
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:33 AM   #14
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The historical Jesus is analogous to a mirage.. He appears real from a distant but every step you take towards the HJ does not get you any closer.

Marcion was right. Jesus only looked real and he was not of the God of the Jews.

The Church may have to apologise to Marcion just as they did to Galileo.

Marcion was right since the 2nd century. Jesus was a mirage, a phantom.
Do you mean that Jesus was a perceptual object in the mind(s) of first century believers?
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:41 AM   #15
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Toto recently encapsulated the "consensus" as this, and it seems to be the case: the consensus tells us that he existed, but there's no consensus on who he was.

To claim that an entity exists, but not to know what specific kind of entity it was - isn't that just a nonsense?

IOW, how can the consensus that something existed be valid until there's a consensus as to what it was? Identification surely comes before existential claim?
Jesus was apparently a traveling Jewish religious leader in the first century, who had at least 12 disciples including Peter, who came into conflict with the Jewish religious establishment and the Pharisees, and who was executed in Jerusalem by Pontius Pilate. Do you know any respected New Testament scholar who disagrees with any of those elements?
What kind of power did the Pharisees have in 2nd temple Judaism?
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:42 AM   #16
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The historical Jesus is analogous to a mirage.. He appears real from a distant but every step you take towards the HJ does not get you any closer.

Marcion was right. Jesus only looked real and he was not of the God of the Jews.

The Church may have to apologise to Marcion just as they did to Galileo.

Marcion was right since the 2nd century. Jesus was a mirage, a phantom.
Do you mean that Jesus was a perceptual object in the mind(s) of first century believers?
aa5874 believes that Jesus was a myth, and he takes the Marcionite Jesus as a confirmation of that. The Marcion conception of Jesus was not a flesh-and-blood Jesus, but merely a phantom, a divine illusion that seemed very much like flesh and blood. The doctrine was apparently designed to solve the perceived problem of Jesus dying, even though he was God, which was seen as a contradiction. Marcion's solution was that Jesus didn't die, but it was a trick. The gospel of Marcion is almost identical to the gospel of Luke, the precursor.
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:47 AM   #17
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Jesus was apparently a traveling Jewish religious leader in the first century, who had at least 12 disciples including Peter, who came into conflict with the Jewish religious establishment and the Pharisees, and who was executed in Jerusalem by Pontius Pilate. Do you know any respected New Testament scholar who disagrees with any of those elements?
What kind of power did the Pharisees have in 2nd temple Judaism?
They were one of many Jewish religious sects at the time, not necessarily dominant. I don't know how much power they had, but the Sadducees probably had more power.
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:54 AM   #18
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..
Jesus was apparently a traveling Jewish religious leader in the first century, who had at least 12 disciples including Peter, who came into conflict with the Jewish religious establishment and the Pharisees, and who was executed in Jerusalem by Pontius Pilate. Do you know any respected New Testament scholar who disagrees with any of those elements?
traveling - no evidence for this. Paul doesn't say anything about traveling. But lots of people traveled in those days, on the good Roman roads.

Jewish - everyone now agrees on this, but this may be a reaction to the Holocaust. A century ago, this was not part of the consensus.

12 disciples - this is a symbolic number, and no one can identify the 12. I think some scholars like Burton Mack would hedge on this.

Peter - the Peter of the gospels is highly mythologized. I think there would be some hedging on this.

came into conflict with the Jewish religious establishment - I think this gets into an area that is not part of the consensus. Some of the historical Jesus theories have him primarily in conflict with the Romans.

and the Pharisees - except for those who follow Maccoby and think that Jesus was a Pharisee

executed in Jerusalem by Pontius Pilate - this is probably part of the consensus.
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:54 AM   #19
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Depends on who one deems as respected, I suppose.
Someone with articles published in a peer-reviewed journal of Biblical studies, someone with a professorship at a university in Biblical studies, or at least someone with a Ph.D. in Biblical studies. I imagine there may be a few such people who disagree with those elements, people you can count on one hand.
After diligent searching I think I found a significant number.

Christ_myth_theory

I'm not sure this is more than you can count on one hand, but it is more than the number of fingers on a normal human's hand; seems to be more than the number of fingers and toes for a normal human.
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:57 AM   #20
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What kind of power did the Pharisees have in 2nd temple Judaism?
They were one of many Jewish religious sects at the time, not necessarily dominant. I don't know how much power they had, but the Sadducees probably had more power.
The Pharisees had power after the fall of the 2nd temple... Jesus' many run-ins with the cartoonish Pharisees seems to be illustrating a post-2nd temple conflict between "Christians" and "Pharisees"; retrofitted to 33 CE.
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