Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 03-01-2013, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePainefulTruth

The point about this thread is that a city was destroyed by fire from above, and that that city was likely the Biblical Sodom, but that it was a natural occurrence. Or at least and as usual there isn't one spec of evidence for the supernatural, leaving us to speculate on the human origin of that "evidence".

What city? No one with credibility claims a supernatural event.

And there is no new evidence, its only percieved by a slight few as having anything to do with the biblical mythology.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is all wishful thinking.

To date, there is nothing that indicates the true origin.

the best bet is the Mesopotamian cuneiform that list Sodom and Gomorrah as a city no where near the black sea.

When we look at the facts that Israelites formed after 1200 BC from displaced Canaanites, then we have to look at the possibility of the story originating from the Israelites exile in Mesopotamia and the legends they picked up there, and brought back with them.

Anything else, is unknown and just wishful thinking

skepticalbip · 03-01-2013, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePainefulTruth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montgomery Scott

The Lot story is another Bible story that was a head scratcher to me.

Lot was the nephew of Abraham and although heterosexual (was married and had at least two daughters), moved into this town that is seemingly teeming with homosexuals. It would seem to me that Abraham would have of objected to this, since he is basically the founder of three religions that are basically anti-homosexual, and being a major player over a book called the Bible which is definitely anti-homosexual.

A city was seen to be destroyed by fire from above.
<snip>

Where is there any evidence of this? There is only a biblical story that could be a parable to warn of being sinful and pissing off god, an exaggerated story of a simple city fire that was all too common. etc. We don't know.

What you are calling science is only frantic hand waving to support a belief that is only convincing to others who already hold that belief. This makes it a wasted effort that is only useful for someone who's faith is wavering and who are looking for some reason to continue to believe. - But I guess it does help to sell magazines.

The "scientific methodology" that is described is no different than if a "scholar" came up with a new idea from the biblical account of where Goliath was slain. He then went to that site, looked around through the many scattered rocks, then picked one up. Examining it, he decided that it was nice and smooth and just the right size to throw. From this "evidence" he declairs that this is "scientific proof" that this is the very rock that David used to slay Goliath, not only proving that that is the rock but that the site he determined is accurate and the biblical story is absolutely true in every detail.

semiopen · 03-01-2013, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePainefulTruth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

At times this is true, but I don't think you will find anything peer reviewed on the discovery of the historical Sodom.

The write up on the author, Steven Collins, says, "he has written extensively on the archaeology of the Bible, especially the geographical and archaeological evidence for the location of Sodom." And since he's the dean of his college's archaeology department, it would be reasonable to assume that he the majority of what he has written on the subject would be scholarly, peer-reviewed articles.

Archaeologists and other scientists often publish an overview of their findings here first while they're putting the finishing touches on the much more extensive and detailed publication. Not that they don't have to answer to the public as well as other scholars in the pages of BAR as well. It you really want to find if there might be some problems, check the next issue. Besides the letters section, they often have rebuttal articles on weak (seldom due to editing) or controversial articles.

Quote:

The James osssuary is a notorious forgery, even if the Israeli government could not prove that Oded Golan was guilty. Part of the reason for the verdict was that the Egyptian who worked for Golan and did the actual work could not be extradicted to testify.

The most damaging testimony to the state's case was from
the head of the Israel Antiquities Authority himself, Shuka Dorfmann, with his testimony that was so contradictory and incompetent about the age of the patina, it caused the judge to chide the prosecution about continuing the case. He's either incompetent, corrupt or both, and he was testifying outside of his specialty. He motivation isn't science, its his crusade against the antiquities market. He even went against the findings of the Israel Geological Survey on the ossuary. And André Lemaire, perhaps the most respected Semitic epigrapher in the world, is the one who published the findings about the translation in the first place.

The most you can say is that archaeologists are divided, but if you look close, the proponents of the fraud theory have a vested interest in supporting religion in some way or another, while the ones who're standing for the original story are taking the heat, including Hershel Shanks.

Trinity_Southwest_University is on the dubious side.

Quote:

Most TSU students enroll in distance education. As of 2007 the typical student was an adult between 40 and 49 years old.[1]

Quote:

TSU is not accredited by any accreditor recognized by the United States Department of Education.

Quote:

In partnership with the government of Jordan, TSU is engaged in archaeological investigations at Tall el-Hammam, a site in the southern Jordan River valley where investigators have found the remains of a fortified city that was destroyed circa the 18th and 19th centuries BCE.[5] In the late 2000s, TSU archaeologist Steven Collins reported that the site was likely to be the location of the biblical city of Sodom.[6]

Just because the Collins works for a piece of shit university is no reason to think that he is not a fantastic archeologist, yet we fail to even see him on wiki or any articles in Jstor or google. It is also a little suspicious to see him referred to as Dr. Collins - for example like you do. I have my doubts about whether he has a degree from an accredited University.

Discovering the City of Sodom: The Fascinating, True Account of the Discovery of the Old Testament's Most Infamous City (or via: amazon.co.uk)

We will have to wait until April 2 for this masterpiece, co-written with the famous former Mormon - Dr. Latayne C. Scott,

Quote:

She is the recipient of Pepperdine University’s Distinguished Christian Service Award for Creative Christian Writing, and makes her home in her native New Mexico.

Personally, if I was Dr. Semiopen, my press kit would mention that I got my degree from such and such University.

My current guess is that the two wacky docs are married. I wonder if they will have smart children.

As many other posters have pointed out; assuming they have found such a city, there is no reason to believe that it would be Sodom. There is reason for the school, professor, whoever, to claim this for publicity, etc.

Meanwhile there are no significant papers about the site and claims for it to be Sodom are even greeted by fundamentalist Christians with skepticism.

Toto · 03-01-2013, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePainefulTruth

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

At times this is true, but I don't think you will find anything peer reviewed on the discovery of the historical Sodom.

The write up on the author, Steven Collins, says, "he has written extensively on the archaeology of the Bible, especially the geographical and archaeological evidence for the location of Sodom." And since he's the dean of his college's archaeology department, it would be reasonable to assume that he the majority of what he has written on the subject would be scholarly, peer-reviewed articles.

Here's Steven Collins bio and scholarly output

Notice that the focus of his education and training has been Christian apologetics and Biblical hermeneutics. Most of his papers appear to be published in "Biblical Research Bulletin" - which does not sound like a secular peer reviewed scholarly journal. He has presented some papers to Archaeological Societies (and given more lectures to seminaries) but I cannot locate a professional journal on his list of publications.

Collins is working in Jordan, but a lot of this article may be applicable to his enterprises: The Biblical Pseudo Archeologists Pillaging the west bank

Backed by church funding, today's biblical archaeologists are often under pressure to deliver distinctly biblical discoveries. "There's so much riding on that," said Raphael Greenberg, a prominent Israeli archaeologist and a public critic of the biblical approach. "People feel like if they can't turn out that information, it defeats their national aspirations or their religious beliefs," he said.

Though subjected to heavy criticism, the biblical archaeology movement has helped to shape the history of the region. Early writings from the American cohort prompted the creation of the Palestine Exploration Fund, a British society, in 1865. This society was financed by archaeologists as well as clergy to conduct surveys and photograph Ottoman-controlled Palestine, but doubled as an intelligence gathering service for the British Army.

Today, Greenberg estimates the majority of funding for excavations in Israel and Palestine comes from religious sources. As a result, he said, researchers are plagued by financial pressure to produce religiously significant discoveries. Recent years have seen multiple claims of finding Noah's Ark, the secret location of the Ark of the Covenant, and most recently, a fraudulent ossuary that was claimed to contain the bones of Jesus' family.

Quote:

...

Quote:

The James osssuary is a notorious forgery, even if the Israeli government could not prove that Oded Golan was guilty. Part of the reason for the verdict was that the Egyptian who worked for Golan and did the actual work could not be extradicted to testify.

The most damaging testimony to the state's case was from
the head of the Israel Antiquities Authority himself, Shuka Dorfmann, with his testimony that was so contradictory and incompetent about the age of the patina, it caused the judge to chide the prosecution about continuing the case. He's either incompetent, corrupt or both, and he was testifying outside of his specialty. He motivation isn't science, its his crusade against the antiquities market. He even went against the findings of the Israel Geological Survey on the ossuary. And André Lemaire, perhaps the most respected Semitic epigrapher in the world, is the one who published the findings about the translation in the first place.

The most you can say is that archaeologists are divided, but if you look close, the proponents of the fraud theory have a vested interest in supporting religion in some way or another, while the ones who're standing for the original story are taking the heat, including Hershel Shanks.

On the contrary, the opponents of the fraud theory have various vested interests in supporting religion. in one way or another. Hershel Shanks recruited a prominent evangelical, Ben Witherington, as co-author and got a six figure advance to write a book on the ossuary before scientists had even finished examining it. (Used copies start at 1 cent on Amazon (or via: amazon.co.uk).)

Toto · 03-02-2013, 09:43 AM

BAR online has just published an actual scholarly rebuttal to Collins:

Arguments Against Locating Sodom at Tall el-Hammam - Todd Bolen responds to "Where is Sodom"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd Bolen

The proposal that Tall el-Hammam is Sodom fails on at least two counts, and these are helpfully summarized by two experts in their respective subjects.

Geography Fail: Bill Schlegel, professor in Israel for 25 years and author of the Satellite Bible Atlas, explains why the biblical text does not fit the geography of Tall el-Hammam.

Chronology Fail: Eugene Merrill, Distinguished Professor of Old Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary and author of Kingdom of Priests: A History of Old Testament Israel (or via: amazon.co.uk), shows in a recent Artifax article that for Tall el-Hammam to be Sodom one must deny all of the biblical dates before the time of the judges.

I’ve written about the issue several times as well: ...

semiopen · 03-02-2013, 10:44 AM

It turns out Latayne is probably not married to Collins. I think that Collins probably asked her to help him write the book because she is sort of a professional Christian writer. I was a little surprised to only find one of her books on Amazon, yet she has published about a million.

It's odd for an academic to get an assistant (or whatever) to help him with a book... I've never noticed this anyway.

Thanks for posting his bio Toto, I had the idea today to look at the school's website more carefully. The school he got his PhD from, Trinity Theological Seminary is also quite dubious.

Quote:

Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary, also known as Trinity College of the Bible; is a nondenominational Bible college and seminary located in Newburgh, Indiana. Trinity offers ] distance education programs at undergraduate, graduate, and doctoral degree levels for self-directed adult learners.

Quote:

In January 1992, Trinity achieved accreditation with the National Association of Private Nontraditional Schools and Colleges (NAPNSC)[6][dead link]. The NAPNSC, which accredits distance education institutions,[7] is not one of the higher education accreditation agencies recognized by the United States Department of Education or the Council for Higher Education Accreditation. Accordingly, Trinity is not accredited by any recognized accreditation body in the United States. As such, its degrees and credits might not be acceptable to employers or other institutions, and use of degree titles may be restricted or illegal in some jurisdictions.[8]

Perhaps the guy has a better case to call himself Dr than I do, but it seems close.

It's surprising that even a dubious place like BAR would feature him. I think Herschel got something in return, maybe from the government of Jordan or something.

Toto · 03-02-2013, 10:53 AM

It is fairly common for scholars to get a popular writer to help with a book aimed at a popular audience. Finkelstein got Neil Silberman to co-author The Bible Unearthed (or via: amazon.co.uk). But they usually get a science writer or someone like that. LaTayne is "is the recipient of Pepperdine University’s Distinguished Christian Service Award for Creative Christian Writing" - which seems appropriate here, somehow.

skepticalbip · 03-02-2013, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

..................
Perhaps the guy has a better case to call himself Dr than I do, but it seems close.
.................................

Yes. Holding a PHD means nothing. A PHD, by itself, doesn't indicate that the holder knows diddly-squat. I have a PHD in Philosophy of Religion that I got as a lark because it required little more than reading one book, taking a test on that book, and submitting $75.00. Four others that I worked with also got their PHDs. The point was that we worked with one guy who had his PHD in physics (one that actually requires a hell of a lot of work and knowledge) that demanded that everyone address him as "Doctor". After receiving our PHDs we would all address each other as "Dr. ______" just to piss him off.

ETA

I guess I should change my screen name to "bippy, PHD"

dockeen · 03-02-2013, 11:36 AM

Quote:

The point was that we worked with one guy who had his PHD in physics (one that actually requires a hell of a lot of work and knowledge) that demanded that everyone address him "Doctor"

One of the greatest payoffs of 7 years in grad school is to be able to say, after being
introduced as Doctor,

"Hi, I'm Wayne"

(yep, mine is in Physics too)

ThePainefulTruth · 03-02-2013, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

BAR online has just published an actual scholarly rebuttal to Collins:

Arguments Against Locating Sodom at Tall el-Hammam - Todd Bolen responds to "Where is Sodom"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd Bolen

The proposal that Tall el-Hammam is Sodom fails on at least two counts, and these are helpfully summarized by two experts in their respective subjects.

Geography Fail: Bill Schlegel, professor in Israel for 25 years and author of the Satellite Bible Atlas, explains why the biblical text does not fit the geography of Tall el-Hammam.

Chronology Fail: Eugene Merrill, Distinguished Professor of Old Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary and author of Kingdom of Priests: A History of Old Testament Israel (or via: amazon.co.uk), shows in a recent Artifax article that for Tall el-Hammam to be Sodom one must deny all of the biblical dates before the time of the judges.

I’ve written about the issue several times as well: ...

First let me re-post what I previously wrote above: "Not that they don't have to answer to the public as well as other scholars in the pages of BAR as well. If you really want to find if there might be some problems, check the next issue. Besides the letters section, they often have rebuttal articles on weak (seldom due to editing) or controversial articles." No sooner said than done.

Second, using those references is to use the Bible almost strictly as a rebuttal resource since they both reference the Bible as the superior reference and accept the archaeology only if it fits the Bible, and worse, subsequent dogma. It cites Bishop Usher, the clown who dated the Earth at 6000 years using a literal reading of the bible, including biblical lifespans (of hundreds of years sometimes) to date when Abraham and Lot lived!!!

Moses is not even a historical figure, much less Abraham and Lot. Their association with Sodom and Gomorrah was backed into the legend like Noah's was into a flood.

And the other reference is just as bad: "I believe we will always have problems trying to locate Sodom and Gomorrah. Besides significant geological/geographical changes to the region associated with the divine destruction (Gen. 13:10), the divine destruction probably didn’t leave much (any?) of the cities to be found." Not to mention words like it "could" have been to the south, or it "could" have been to the north.

It also says, "However, Genesis 13:11-12 implies passage of time during which Lot moved around. That Lot “pitched his tent as far as Sodom” suggests a geographical separation from the “Kikkar of the Jordan.”

No, it suggests the geographical separation of Bethel in Israel from Sodom.

Stevens never appealed to a divine imperative of the Bible once, much less its primacy.

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03-02-2013, 10:53 AM	#97
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	It is fairly common for scholars to get a popular writer to help with a book aimed at a popular audience. Finkelstein got Neil Silberman to co-author The Bible Unearthed (or via: amazon.co.uk). But they usually get a science writer or someone like that. LaTayne is "is the recipient of Pepperdine University’s Distinguished Christian Service Award for Creative Christian Writing" - which seems appropriate here, somehow.

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