Hickdive

Once again, people get confused about the burden of proof.

Did jesus exist? Yes? Well, where is the evidence that he did? This is an entirely reasonable request.

The simple fact is that the evidence in support of him being an actual historical figure is slim to nil.

If he cannot be demonstrated to have existed then the whole house of cards that is christianity comes crashing down, from the miracles to the resurrection.

If you're going to demolish a building then taking it down brick by brick from the roof to ground level might be aesthetically pleasing but it's a hell of a lot less efficient than knocking out the foundations.

Of course, whether or not jesus existed has no effect on the essential point of whether or not there is/are god(s). However, since I suspect that in many instances in the western world christianity/theism are practically synonymous and therefore undermining christianity might have the benefit of lessening the baleful influence of it in those societies.

Juststeve

Actually there is plenty of evidence that an historical Jesus existed. That's what has given rise to a cottage industry, call it the myther project, of trying to explain away the evidence that does exist.

Steve

sotto voce

One change is dumbing down. For whatever reason (and it may be simply economic), many Western children are today given little or no grounding in history, or even geography. They do not know where they are, in either place, or time; nor do they have any sense of historical progression. They think that milk comes from cartons, that mobile 'phones have always existed. If they were in future to be told that Jesus was a mythical character, like Apollo or Bacchus, they would not be in any position to investigate the truth of that. So people who oppose the values of Jesus see an opportunity to overcome his following. Of course, they have to silence those who resist their version of the past if the ingénue culture is to be convinced.

Another recent change is the loosening grip of denominations on believers in Jesus as Christ. The Roman Empire, based on corruption, devised a counterfeit church, under its thumb, that firmly limited the values of Jesus so that corrupt practices were not questioned, not brought to light. Protestant denominations, that grew alongside democracy, permitted the values of Jesus to be more widely applied; though still under the eyes of undemocratically appointed 'clergy', a word and concept not found in the New Testament. Today, it is quite possible that more Christians worldwide are members of democratic groups than exist as members of denominations. Though one does not notice from these groups any obvious challenge to society's values, still, there are some who are evidently twitchy about the idea of Christians not under the control of people whom they approve. It may be less of a financial motive, more of a gender issue that concerns them, but their desire to control is not too hard to discern.

Toto

I am offended as a skeptic when people who refuse to discuss the evidence smear mythicists as fringe thinkers.

People who think that there is credible evidence of a historical Jesus are the real fringe thinkers and woo woo artists, trying to pull the wool over your eyes. They have an agenda.

Toto

There is not plenty of evidence. Just try to find it.

The work for mythicists is debunking the historicist attempts to explain away this lack of evidence.

sotto voce

Do enlarge on that.

No Robots

Several centuries ago, Spinoza initiated the modern approach to the Bible, examining it as one would any other document. That meant taking into account the whole cultural matrix that produced it, and examining its truth claims on its own terms. When this method is applied to the New Testament, it becomes abundantly clear that the main figure, Christ, stands fully within the cultural context of prophetic Judaism. This realization has caused an ongoing crisis within the Christian religion. The typical response of religionists is to assert that there is a difference between the Jewish historical Jesus and a Christian post-historical, ie. supernatural, Christ. The myth theory claims that only the latter has any basis in the literary record. The current discussion is thus over whether the main figure of the New Testament is a mythologized Jewish man, or a mythical fiction, based on Jewish and Gentile currents of thought. In this discussion, religionists find themselves in a bind: if they accept the mythologized man, they lose the supernatural god; and if they accept the mythical fiction, they lose the historical man.

For atheists of a spiritual bent the historical man depicted in the Bible is clearly a spiritual hero, seeking to demolish all obstacles blocking the way to a fulfilling life of the spirit. This hero has been held captive for millennia by the anti-spiritual religionists, and now a new group of pseudo-scholars wants to block free access to the inspirational power of this man’s life.

sotto voce

Which was founded on the evidence of the supernatural— according to the Hebrew texts. A messiah that is not just a rude son of Eve, but shows the signs of divinity, is fundamental to Judaism.

badger3k

To me, there isn't any strategic importance. If there is no god, whether someone named Jesus existed or not isn't relevant to that argument. It is a historical argument, and to me interesting because of all the horrible arguments and extreme lack of evidence for a historical person. There could have been one, but some of the mythicist arguments haven't been answered at all and make some good points. Considering that for years Biblical Archaeology was dominated by flawed assumptions and sloppy work, and we are now learning that a lot of what we thought true is not...it's directly relevant. I'd like to know the truth. Probably never will unless we find new documents, but the discussion is interesting.

If it never goes beyond to affect believers (who wouldn't believe either the non-magical Jesus not the mythical Jesus anyway), so what. They're not important to the issue.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

No Robots

In order to maintain their man-god hybrid, Christian religionists are now forced to try to detect evidence for divinized men within the Jewish literature. While such evidence may exist, it nevertheless remains the case that, within its own context, Judaism rejects all concrete representation of the divine. The words of Christ clearly attest that while he knew perfect harmony with the spirit of the divine, he was not the divine itself.