Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Paiev · 12-07-2006, 07:35 PM

Premise: Jesus is the Messiah
Premise: The Messiah must fulfill all prophecies in the OT regarding the Messiah.

1) Jesus must fullfill all the prophecies in the OT regarding the Messiah.
2) Jeremiah 23:5-6 Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up a righteous shooot to David; As king he shall reign and govern wisely, he shall do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah shall be saved, Israel shall dwell in security. This is the name they give him: "The Lord our justice"
3) The prophecy in 2 was not fulfilled (those things did not happen while Jesus was alive).
4) Therefore, Jesus did not exist.

Paiev · 12-07-2006, 07:38 PM

Premise: God does not Lie
Premise: Jesus is God

1) Jesus does not lie.
2) Mark 16:17-18 These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will drive out demons, they will speak new languages. They will pick up serpets, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

John 14:12-14 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father. And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.

Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
3) 2 is a lie.
4) Jesus has lied.
5) Therefore, Jesus does not exist.

yalla · 12-07-2006, 08:12 PM

1.I've looked and looked and looked and just can't find any evidence at all at all that JC existed.
2.Thus JC very probably did not exist.

Peter Kirby · 12-07-2006, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yalla

1.I've looked and looked and looked and just can't find any evidence at all at all that JC existed.
2.Thus JC very probably did not exist.

1. If someone looks thoroughly and can't find any evidence at all that Jesus existed, then Jesus did not exist.
2. There exists a person who has looked thoroughly and can't find any evidence at all that Jesus existed.
3. Therefore, Jesus did not exist.

kind regards,
Peter Kirby

mountainman · 12-07-2006, 08:57 PM

1) Apollonius of Tyana's biographer Philostratus does not mention
either Jesus or christianity in the early third century.

2) Eusebius in the fourth century purports that Hierocles makes
a very late comparison between Jesus and Apollonius, while at
the same time providing valuable references that, not only were
both Apollonius and Damis (his scribe) historical figures, but that
there were extant writings by the philosopher/sage Apollonius,
whom he quotes.

3) Either Jesus is a fiction or Apollonius is a fiction. There is a
far greater historicity for the author Apollonius. Neither literature
references the other's literature.

4) The christian party plundered the writings and the gold of the
"pagan" temples, and destroyed the literature of the pagans (ie:
they burned books, and people because of their beliefs) during
the fourth century. They were destroying conflicting literature.

5) The Emperor Julian, in the fourth century wrote that he was
"convinced that the fabrication of the galilaeans is a fiction
of men composed by wickedness.

6) Therefore Jesus is the fictional character, and did not exist.

neilgodfrey · 12-08-2006, 04:34 AM

Our evidence for Jesus is nonhistorical (it is theological or theo-philosophical) and describes him as a being who either is not human -- he is a heavenly agent, he walks on water, was not begotten by human sperm, rose from the dead, etc. -- or is a human being possessed unnaturally by a spirit (at conception in the gospel of Philip and at baptism in the gospel of Mark) and who subsequently behaves and speaks unlike a real human being.

It is more plausible that a mythical concept of a heavenly being who makes decisive contact with the earthly creation would evolve over time in some schools into a human-like character than it is that a historical person would evolve over time into a mystical entity with God.

The earliest debates over Jesus included disagreements over whether he was a real human or something else, and this fact also sets him apart from historical persons. (The assertion that "he was both god and man" is illogical nonsense and also disqualifies him from having historical existence.)

We have NO primary (or even secondary) historical evidence for Jesus comparable for our historical evidence for Julius Caesar (his own writing and references by contemporaries) or Alexander (coins).

The earliest references to Jesus in secular histories (found in Tacitus, Josephus, Suetonius and Pliny) are either challenged by reasonable arguments as forgeries and/or contain no certain reference to a historical Jesus at all.

Therefore Jesus did not exist (Or at least: in a truly rational world the burden of proof for a historical Jesus ought to be on those who want to prove such a person really did exist.)

Neil Godfrey
http://vridar.wordpress.com

Clivedurdle · 12-08-2006, 05:57 AM

From the other thread I understand we are in a brainstorming phase - just putting the suggestions out with no criticism allowed!

OK

Christ means annointed one. Christians are basically followers of a holy smelly High Priest who is obviously a mythical construct!

We have a wondrous mix of ideas and beliefs from various sources that were brought together as the greatest story ever told. The psychological and mythical motifs are so strong it is a wonder anyone ever thought there was a kernel of historicity behind it all!

Iznomneak · 12-08-2006, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

I want to play a game of sorts, with a purpose. I want to collect as many possible arguments to the effect of "Therefore, Jesus did not exist." Here are the rules:

1. No rebuttals.
2. No parody posts, please. Serious arguments only.
3. One argument per post.
4. A maximum of 500 words per argument. (You shouldn't need more; you can use citations to support points that are developed in the literature.)
5. The conclusion must be "Therefore, Jesus did not exist."
6. You don't have to be a logician. However, you may submit revisions of previously made arguments that attempts to put them in a logically valid form.

When we've collected them, I will perform my own arbitrary ordering of them, and start new threads for the top 10, or fewer, depending. If you want to start a thread on any given argument, you are free to do so at any time.

When we're done, we will have a good base for an achristology.

NOTICE to the mods: If anyone starts doing rebuttals in this thread, please farm them out to their own separate threads.

kind regards,
Peter Kirby

similiar to gstafleu's argument:

1. Humans have the capacity to invent god(s)
2. Human history consists of thousands of invented gods
3. There is no positive evidence to suggest that any god is real
4. There is no known test to confirm that any gods are real
5. There is no positive evidence to suggest that Jesus is a god
6. There is no known test to confirm that Jesus is a god
7. It is probable that Jesus is an invented god
8. It is probable that the god Jesus does not exist

Selsaral · 12-08-2006, 06:23 AM

If God was invented by humans for psychological and cultural reasons, the only evidence we would expect to see would be stories and claims of personal experience, but never scientific evidence.

Since all we have are stories and claims of personal experience, and never scientific evidence, the current state of affairs aligns itself perfectly with the idea that the concept of God was invented by humans.

Therefore Jesus (and all similar supernatural concepts) (most probably) do not exist.

Clivedurdle · 12-08-2006, 07:05 AM

Possible rebuttal of the other thread follows, but it is to do with interpretation of evidence!

Roman catacombs and various other places clearly link Jesus with fish. This is clearly mythological alchemic magical thinking.

Conclusion - the archaeology supports myth

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12-07-2006, 07:35 PM	#21
Paiev Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: In a cardboard box Posts: 8	Premise: Jesus is the Messiah Premise: The Messiah must fulfill all prophecies in the OT regarding the Messiah. 1) Jesus must fullfill all the prophecies in the OT regarding the Messiah. 2) Jeremiah 23:5-6 Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up a righteous shooot to David; As king he shall reign and govern wisely, he shall do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah shall be saved, Israel shall dwell in security. This is the name they give him: "The Lord our justice" 3) The prophecy in 2 was not fulfilled (those things did not happen while Jesus was alive). 4) Therefore, Jesus did not exist.

12-07-2006, 07:38 PM	#22
Paiev Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: In a cardboard box Posts: 8	Premise: God does not Lie Premise: Jesus is God 1) Jesus does not lie. 2) Mark 16:17-18 These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will drive out demons, they will speak new languages. They will pick up serpets, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover. John 14:12-14 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father. And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. 3) 2 is a lie. 4) Jesus has lied. 5) Therefore, Jesus does not exist.

12-07-2006, 08:12 PM	#23
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	1.I've looked and looked and looked and just can't find any evidence at all at all that JC existed. 2.Thus JC very probably did not exist.

12-07-2006, 08:57 PM	#25
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	1) Apollonius of Tyana's biographer Philostratus does not mention either Jesus or christianity in the early third century. 2) Eusebius in the fourth century purports that Hierocles makes a very late comparison between Jesus and Apollonius, while at the same time providing valuable references that, not only were both Apollonius and Damis (his scribe) historical figures, but that there were extant writings by the philosopher/sage Apollonius, whom he quotes. 3) Either Jesus is a fiction or Apollonius is a fiction. There is a far greater historicity for the author Apollonius. Neither literature references the other's literature. 4) The christian party plundered the writings and the gold of the "pagan" temples, and destroyed the literature of the pagans (ie: they burned books, and people because of their beliefs) during the fourth century. They were destroying conflicting literature. 5) The Emperor Julian, in the fourth century wrote that he was "convinced that the fabrication of the galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness. 6) Therefore Jesus is the fictional character, and did not exist.

12-08-2006, 04:34 AM	#26
neilgodfrey Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Darwin, Australia Posts: 874	Our evidence for Jesus is nonhistorical (it is theological or theo-philosophical) and describes him as a being who either is not human -- he is a heavenly agent, he walks on water, was not begotten by human sperm, rose from the dead, etc. -- or is a human being possessed unnaturally by a spirit (at conception in the gospel of Philip and at baptism in the gospel of Mark) and who subsequently behaves and speaks unlike a real human being. It is more plausible that a mythical concept of a heavenly being who makes decisive contact with the earthly creation would evolve over time in some schools into a human-like character than it is that a historical person would evolve over time into a mystical entity with God. The earliest debates over Jesus included disagreements over whether he was a real human or something else, and this fact also sets him apart from historical persons. (The assertion that "he was both god and man" is illogical nonsense and also disqualifies him from having historical existence.) We have NO primary (or even secondary) historical evidence for Jesus comparable for our historical evidence for Julius Caesar (his own writing and references by contemporaries) or Alexander (coins). The earliest references to Jesus in secular histories (found in Tacitus, Josephus, Suetonius and Pliny) are either challenged by reasonable arguments as forgeries and/or contain no certain reference to a historical Jesus at all. Therefore Jesus did not exist (Or at least: in a truly rational world the burden of proof for a historical Jesus ought to be on those who want to prove such a person really did exist.) Neil Godfrey http://vridar.wordpress.com

12-08-2006, 05:57 AM	#27
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	From the other thread I understand we are in a brainstorming phase - just putting the suggestions out with no criticism allowed! OK Christ means annointed one. Christians are basically followers of a holy smelly High Priest who is obviously a mythical construct! We have a wondrous mix of ideas and beliefs from various sources that were brought together as the greatest story ever told. The psychological and mythical motifs are so strong it is a wonder anyone ever thought there was a kernel of historicity behind it all!

12-08-2006, 06:23 AM	#29
Selsaral Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan Posts: 3,095	If God was invented by humans for psychological and cultural reasons, the only evidence we would expect to see would be stories and claims of personal experience, but never scientific evidence. Since all we have are stories and claims of personal experience, and never scientific evidence, the current state of affairs aligns itself perfectly with the idea that the concept of God was invented by humans. Therefore Jesus (and all similar supernatural concepts) (most probably) do not exist.

12-08-2006, 07:05 AM	#30
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Possible rebuttal of the other thread follows, but it is to do with interpretation of evidence! Roman catacombs and various other places clearly link Jesus with fish. This is clearly mythological alchemic magical thinking. Conclusion - the archaeology supports myth

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