Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-28-2008, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

My take is like this:

Given these three truths:
It's extremely/impossible that the bible is correct about Jesus.
It's implausible that someone invented Jesus out of nothing. (completely fiction)
Myths usually have some historical ground, which the myth grows upon.

You could be completely wrong, that is, if Jesus did not exist then the bible was not correct about him, some-one invented him out of nothing and he was a complete myth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

Therefore it seems likely that there were an apocalyptic prophet, which caused some trouble and got killed. Mythic material was later added because the story travelled verbally.

This is pure speculation, you have no non-apologetic source to support you. You are dreaming.

I think it should be noted that this mantra of yours contains an extremely question begging assumption (along with the fallacy of bifurcation) -- namely, that by their very nature "apologies" cannot and do not contain anything historically reliable and cannot/should not be regarded/used by historians as evidence of the historicity of the figure whose reputation a given Apology defends (that's what Apologetic literature does) or as sources for determining what that figure did and said.

I wonder, then, what you have to say to Classical historians who think that The Apology of Plato and The Apology of Xenophon stand not only as excellent testimony to the historicity of Socrates (and who think would do so even in the absence of any non apologetic contemporary corroborative evidence), but also as extremely good sources for determining what went on at the trial of Socrates (the historicity of which is, to my knowledge, attested only in apologetic and non contemporaneous sources) and for what Socrates taught about the duties of a philosopher.

What do you know about ancient Apologetic literature that they don't? Why should we accept your view about the worth of Apologetic literature over theirs?

Jeffrey

bopot · 03-28-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

The consensus of experts is not always correct, but being suspicious of it because it is a consensus of experts strikes me as perverse.

If I might move us along from the Nazi analogy, that isn't the case here. It is the basis of the consensus, or lack thereof, that is argued to be suspect. The experts are seen as having been excessively influenced by their personal preferences in their consideration of the evidence.

I agree.

J-D · 03-28-2008, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

The consensus of experts is not always correct, but being suspicious of it because it is a consensus of experts strikes me as perverse.

If I might move us along from the Nazi analogy, that isn't the case here. It is the basis of the consensus, or lack thereof, that is argued to be suspect. The experts are seen as having been excessively influenced by their personal preferences in their consideration of the evidence.

I refer you to my first response on this thread.

J-D · 03-28-2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

There also seems to be a consensus of agreement among well known and academically credentialed scholars that Santa Claus lives at the North Pole.

Is there? I don't think so.

J-D · 03-28-2008, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

"The experts are seen as having been excessively influenced by their personal preferences in their consideration of the evidence."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

There also seems to be a consensus of agreement among well known and academically credentialed scholars that Santa Claus lives at the North Pole.
Of course the story of Santa does have a lot more historical evidence to support it than does the legend of J.H.C.

Perhaps it is because these "experts" are engaged in tippy-toeing carefully around the subject of the historicity of JC for those very same "social reasons" that they follow in their consensus regarding Santa?

To disparage, or to publicly challenge the historical truth of such popular cult figures, makes one extremely unpopular person, and still can quite easily get one killed, or at the minimum become a persona non grata.

Rot.

Nobody gets killed for saying there isn't any Santa Claus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Attempting to debunk Jesus myths at the "wrong time", is on the par with attempting to debunk Santa myths during the Christmas Season.
Thing is, with respect to "Jesus" myths, there are a whole lot more "wrong times", and occasions where it is considered to be "socially inappropriate" and "unacceptable" and "blasphemous" to point out any faults in the "accepted" teachings and social customs.
So we end up with what is the equivalent of a "Yes Virginia,........... "
A consensus of "players" who are willing to ever continue playing the game, with historical truth and reason always being a pawn for popularity.

Countless millions of words have been written, and speeches without end are composed, to shield men from having to deal with the reality of the cold hard facts of life, and the uncaring nature of the universe that we inhabit.

Those who are miserable in this life, want there to be a better one ahead, (though often, their state of misery is of their own making)
Feeling that they are victims, they dream of becoming the victors, but they can never be the victors unless others become the victims, thus the popularity of a heaven or hell theology.

spin · 03-28-2008, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

If I might move us along from the Nazi analogy, that isn't the case here. It is the basis of the consensus, or lack thereof, that is argued to be suspect. The experts are seen as having been excessively influenced by their personal preferences in their consideration of the evidence.

I refer you to my first response on this thread.

And here it is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

I'm interested in hearing the consensus on the historical Jesus both here and in the real academic world.

Here, there is no consensus.

Could be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

And even if there is a consensus in the real academic world, you won't find out about it here,

Blatant tripe. Consensuses are often discussed here. You mightn't like the discussion, but your proposition is false.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

because there are people here so committed to their own positions that they will deny the existence of any such consensus if it conflicts with their own views.

Nastily worded invective aimed at branding all discussion here because of some indeterminate number of people whose views you don't like.

There is no problem knowing and discussing consensus opinions, but opinions are only ever opinions (no matter whose they are) and are no substitute for evidence, so argument based on consensus opinion is no argument whatsoever.

spin

Solitary Man · 03-28-2008, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Nastily worded invective aimed at branding all discussion here because of some indeterminate number of people whose views you don't like.

Looks accurate to me. But I guess when you've committed to such an odd methodology like yours, who can help but attack any criticism?

Sheshbazzar · 03-28-2008, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

There also seems to be a consensus of agreement among well known and academically credentialed scholars that Santa Claus lives at the North Pole.

Is there? I don't think so.

Really? in an uncoached opinion poll, what answer do you think people would most likely give when presented with this this simple question?

Where does Santa Claus live?

Yes, there might be some diversity of opinions and answers, so lets still have an uncoached audience, only see what happens when there is a significant reward at stake.

So lets up the ante a bit.
We have Mr Scholar as a guest on a cash prize game show, with the top prize being THREE MILLION DOLLARS, and the providing of a "wrong" answer eliminates that contestant.

[Introductory applause]
(MC)Are we ready? [audience applause] For our next contestant, we have here with us Mr. Rhodes Scholar. Nice to have you here with us today Mr Scholar, are you ready? [applause]

OK, Here we go folks, question number one for one hundred dollars IS,

"Where does Santa Claus Live?"

a. Ooompa Loompa Land
b. The Vatican
c. The North Pole
d. none of the above

All right, I see that our studio audience has now locked in their votes.
Now Mr Scholar, on your way to THREE MILLION DOLLARS, Your answer IS?

No, I'm not going to answer for Mr Scholar, but do believe that the audience is quite unanimous in their answer.
And I am quite confident of which answer most scholars would give under these circumstances, regardless of your "I don't think so".

Sheshbazzar · 03-29-2008, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Nobody gets killed for saying there isn't any Santa Claus.

People are killed every day for even less.

Solitary Man · 03-29-2008, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Is there? I don't think so.

Really? in an uncoached opinion poll, what answer do you think people would most likely give when presented with this this simple question?

Where does Santa Claus live?

Yes, there might be some diversity of opinions and answers, so lets still have an uncoached audience, only see what happens when there is a significant reward at stake.

So lets up the ante a bit.
We have Mr Scholar as a guest on a cash prize game show, with the top prize being THREE MILLION DOLLARS, and the providing of a "wrong" answer eliminates that contestant.

[Introductory applause]
(MC)Are we ready? [audience applause] For our next contestant, we have here with us Mr. Rhodes Scholar. Nice to have you here with us today Mr Scholar, are you ready? [applause]

OK, Here we go folks, question number one for one hundred dollars IS,

"Where does Santa Claus Live?"

a. Ooompa Loompa Land
b. The Vatican
c. The North Pole
d. none of the above

All right, I see that our studio audience has now locked in their votes.
Now Mr Scholar, on your way to THREE MILLION DOLLARS, Your answer IS?

No, I'm not going to answer for Mr Scholar, but do believe that the audience is quite unanimous in their answer.
And I am quite confident of which answer most scholars would give under these circumstances, regardless of your "I don't think so".

Ask those same people if they believe that Santa Claus exists and your little theory becomes painfully obvious how stupid it is.

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