Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bfniii · 05-20-2006, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helo

Following the alternative theories about the plagues (That they were scientifically occuring phenomina that were misinterpreted) they would have been seen as just mildly unusual and not worth writing home about.

i'm not sure i agree with that. the widespread devastation of the plagues would seemingly merit being recorded. however, it was not uncommon for records to exaggerate events. especially when it involved "winning" and "losing". it is unreasonable to think that the egyptians would have recorded being bested by the hebrew slaves. that would be an unacceptable embarrassment.

bfniii · 05-20-2006, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sismofyt

not only do we have egyptian records from the whole 'biblical' period.

if you are referring to the hebrew time in egypt, then that is not accurate. there is relatively little information about egypt during the hyksos rule compared to other periods due to the embarrassment of being under the reign of foreigners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sismofyt

the hebrews where a small insignificant nation compared to giants of egypt and babylon / assyria. they never contributed to anything in that region, never build anything, never wrote anything (besides documents that ended up in the ot, significant for a lot of people today yes, but not back then) they didn't bring anything cultural important to the region as such)

they were nomads, then slaves and then gradually insinuated into palestine. i'm not sure why you would expect something different culturally than what we now know of them.

bfniii · 05-20-2006, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gullwind

Of course we have to ask the question, what was pulling the chariots? Exodus 9 starts off with the plague that killed off all Egyptian livestock, including horses. While I haven't studied ancient warfare all that much, I do know that a horse has to be trained fairly intensively to pull a chariot and respond properly in battle. Where did the Egyptians get the horses to pull their chariots if they had all been killed by the plague?

there is no time period specified by the bible in between the plagues. there could have been enough time for the egyptians to acquire more horses. also, the livestock of the hebrews was untouched by the plague. it's possible the egyptians bartered for livestock from the hebrews. the point is there are multiple explanations for the narrative.

bfniii · 05-20-2006, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asha'man

Helo, you really need to pick up a copy of The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. They are professional archaeologists who have studied this topic in depth, and have produced what is essentially the definitive answer from the archaeological evidence.

this statement resembles reality in no way, shape or form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asha'man

If the Hebrews had conquered Canaan, there would have been a sudden influx of Egyptian-influence culture, which would be apparent in artifacts such as pottery, clothing, writing, architecture, etc.

not necessarily. it is possible that the hebrews developed or maintained much of their own culture while in egypt. people forced into slavery don't usually emulate their captors. it's likely they would have shed all vestiges of their time in egypt. according to the bible, much of their culture was developed during the wandering in the wilderness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asha'man

If you kill all the local potters and replace them, there would almost have to be a change in style found in artifacts, right? No such Egyptian-influenced change ever happened, at least not in any rapid fashion around the 13th century BCE.

the problem with this statement is that there doesn't seem to be evidence that the hebrews simultaneously killed all inhabitants indigenous to palestine. they gradually insinuated themselves into the area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asha'man

Instead, there is a clear evolution of Hebrew culture from Canaan natives.

which is to be expected.

bfniii · 05-20-2006, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fromdownunder

..not to mention lots and lots of human skeletons.

Norm

curious. i posted 6 reasons why we should expect little to no evidence of sinaitic wandering and these are the responses?

bfniii · 05-20-2006, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gullwind

Not crushed? Have you considered the implications of the 10 plagues? So, after all this, the Egyptians have no crops for the entire year, and no livestock. Do you really imagine that the nation of Egypt would survive a year or more with no crops and no livestock? Especially without mentioning it in any records. Not to mention the lack of any mention from neighboring nations where the Egyptians went to buy new seeds and animals (lots of them). Sure its possible that we just haven't found those particular records, but until we do, the logical position is to doubt such an extraordinary event ever happened.

see post #103

bfniii · 05-20-2006, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

bfniii, Abraham also was supposed to have lived around Beersheba and dug a well there, although the city and its well date to later periods.

we have no guarantee that the well you cite is the very same one abraham dug. it is likely that wells were common. concordantly, i note your use of the word "around" thus implying an uncertainty about abraham's exact location.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

He also had dealings with Philistines who did not arrive in the area in Abraham's supposed times.

it is possible that the they actually existed there during that time. do you know of evidence that conclusively shows that it was impossible for any of them to have been there at that time?

05-21-2006, 12:18 AM

Greetings all,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helo

Im actually not a Christian, Im defending my own theories, I couldnt care less about the bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helo

The only THING thats claiming the Jews were in the desert for 40 years is the bible.

Pardon?

Iasion

Anat · 05-21-2006, 01:07 AM

bfniii, the Philistines are easier to track than the Israelites, as they were true newcomers to the Levant. They brought an identifiable culture that can be traced back to the Aegean area.

Sven · 05-21-2006, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfniii

while finkelstein may be a good archaeologist, his conclusions are not without peer. the revisionist, nihilist and deconstruction movements within archaeology are not universally accepted. it's unfortunate that someone would present his debatable work but fail to mention the work of those who disagree with his ideas.

It's unfortunates that someone would say that there are critics of Finkelstein&Silverman without bothering to cite any arguments or evidence. *shrug*

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05-21-2006, 01:07 AM	#109
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	bfniii, the Philistines are easier to track than the Israelites, as they were true newcomers to the Levant. They brought an identifiable culture that can be traced back to the Aegean area.

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