Vinnie

Dr X writes: So, returning to the Passion . . . where is your evidence that Mk did not make it up?

Vinnie Responds: Whoever claimed the passion was historical or that Mark's account of Jesus' death was accurate? Feel free to quote where I said this.

Dr X responds: Non sequitur. As is speculation upon whether or not I consider Mk having a source for the passion, having made it up, et cetera. What remains at issue is that you have not justified designating the crucifixion a "fact."

How is my response a non sequitur when I merely pointed out that you falsely asked me why I accepted the Marcan passion narrative as an accurate historical report when I do not?

Feel free to not twist my words in such ways in the future.

Vinnie

Doctor X

Vinnie:

I neveer make typographical mistakes. . . .

Actually, I have asked to provide the evidence that Junior was crucified. You have not presented anything earlier than Mk--unless I missed it somewhere. All the rest can be dependent on Mk. I believe I made that quite clear. Unless you can provide concete evidence of the crucifixion you cannot call it a "fact."

The reason I brought it up was as a comparison. As you quip later, there are many examples. Oddly enough some are actually independent, and, even better, most of the deities involved are rather unpleasant and petulent--including YHWH and Elohim, actually.

"No one would ever make up such an embarrassing story about their god. . . ."

Bottom line, is we can pick appart the traditions--and some do!--trying to prove a Flood. Some do it here until the Unspeakable Denizens from Evolution/Creation get a wiff of them. Unfortunately, SCIENCE demonstrates why they are wrong.

So . . . the problem you have is because Mk is mythologic in his rendering of the passion narrative and you do not have anything earlier . . . how do you prove that "it happened?"

Now:

I never accused you of accepting the Marcan passion narrative as an accurate historical report. I asked you to give your evidence that he did not make it up. Thus your response did not actually respond to my rebuttal. If Mk made it up out of whole cloth you lose any evidence that a crucifixion happened.

Quod erat demonstrandum

If an unkind man I would recognize that as ironic considering how you misread my words above. Since I am not, I will merely note that I am only as good as the material given to me.

To Reiterate: Thou hast declar'd the crucifixion a fact.

You need more evidence than what you have to prove that.

I am not saying it is "unreasonable" nor am I saying it is "false." I am recognizing it is not an established fact.

--J.D.

Vorkosigan

My bad no doubt. My complaint is that Crossan says his methodology is X, but it is actually X + a large number of other things, some of which he is not really clear about. It's wrong to claim that your methodology consists of X when it doesn't. I also attempted to connect that to his complaint about Meier's criteria not being theory-based in [i]Birth[i/]; neither is Crossan's. That's all I meant.

Vorkosigan

Vinnie

FOR THE MILLIONT TIME!!!!!!!!!


Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul

Possubly a pre-Marcan PN
Mark,
John,
Special L

That Mark John and Special L have the same traditons (in my stratification) indeopdnently shows it predates them all. And i mentioned Paul for crtying out loud.

Stop saying it I didn't present the requested evidence. If you disagree with m7y presented evidence JUSTY SAY SO. I am tired of this. How many times must I repeat the same thing over and over again. Here, in case you missed it again:


Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul Paul

Thank you.

Vinnie

Amaleq13

Vinnie,


Don't forget to mention that Doctor X appears to have forgotten about Paul.



I'm clearly begging for another et tu.

Vinnie

LOL

We appear to be having a major miscommunication somewheres in here. Like that guy from Cool Hand Luke said: "What we have here, is a failure to communicate..."

Vinnie

Vinnie

You brought it up because you have absolutly nothing of substance with which to crituque my methodology. Apply the global flood to it if you want.

Go down the list point by point with documentation. Show me that my methodology demonstrates a global flood and I'll dismiss it as uselsss. Start with straticiation of global flood stories which includes a range of dates for when the flood occured.

Vinnie

rlogan

Vinnie,

I thanked you elsewhere for that quite interesting stratum by stratum excuse-building for the "coming".

On the methodology I am going to suggest again that the absence of physical proof on the list is what allows for the "appearance" of certainty when you have a bunch of the "positive" criteria fulfilled.

If you put physical proof or something tantamount to it on the list then absence of a "checkmark" there provides a degree of uncertainty your good friend spin would approve of.

Here is another example of something that I would accept at that level. Justin Martyr claimed there were these "Acts of Pilate" that backed up the crucifixion, Jesus' miracles, and such. I realize there are some fraudulent "Acts of Pilate" that came out of the Church forgery mill. I don't mean those.

Likewise, he refers to registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, the first procurator in Judaea for establishing the birth of Jesus in Nazareth. That, too is suspect given the Archaeology of the place now known as Nazareth.

But any such evidence - name that category however you please, and add it to the list and it becomes more credible in the eyes of your good friends here...